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Borrowed club

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Borrowed club

Postby RJM » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:47 am

Interesting situation posed recently - during a four ball event (not noted whether it was stroke play or match play), player A borrowed a club from his partner, player B, and made a hole in one with the borrowed club. Player A had 13 clubs in his bag. Is player A penalized? Does the hole in one stand?
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby Doug » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:37 am

How many clubs did player B have?
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby RJM » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:45 pm

His full allotment.
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby Doug » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:12 pm

Thanks. I thought it might be a pre-xmas quiz :wink:

In that case, as the player was DQd from the hole before getting the ace, IMO he does not qualify.
However, as the RoG do not cover such prize competitions, it must ultimately depend on the conditions set down by the committee (or sponsors if a big prize is involved).
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby RJM » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:31 pm

Which Rule and penalty statement talks about DQ for the hole?
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby Doug » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:02 pm

Oops. 2sp of course.

So, as soon as he made his stroke he has incurred the penalties. When the ball went in the hole he is now 3.
As he intentionally breached a rule which may have materially helped his I don't see why he should be eligible for a prize.
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby RJM » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:22 pm

Forget any notion of a prize, he just wants to know if he'd scored a hole in one. And who said he "intentionally breached a Rule"?
What about match play?
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby Doug » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:49 pm

'Intentionally'.
Perhaps I should have worded it differently.
He intentionally took an action which breached a rule. He didn't accidentally use that club.

But of course the RoG have no interest in 'holes in one' so anything I say is only an opinion. I have literally just come from a competitions committee meeting where, out of interest, I posed the question. Admittedly there was some 'umming and arring' but eventually there was a consensus that it wouldn't go in the club's official record book.
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby RJM » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:15 pm

What would be your ruling in four-ball match play? Would the hole in one stand?
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby Doug » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:15 pm

I don't see why the ruling would be different.
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby RJM » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:18 pm

But I don't think there are any two stroke penalties in match play.
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby Doug » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:35 pm

Good point.
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby dickinshorts » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:34 am

I thought you could use a partners' club as long as you had less than 14 - and he hadn't used the club during the round up to that point

In this case B could not have had the club back to use later in the round as it was now part of A's set

Or am i missing something?
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby Johanna » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:45 am

Dick, the only time a player may use one of his partner's clubs is if the total number of clubs carried by the partners doesn't exceed 14. See Rule 4-4b.
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby don » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:03 pm

dickinshorts wrote:
Or am i missing something?

R4-4?
The addition of a club or clubs must not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7) and the player must not add or borrow any club selected for play by any other person playing on the course.
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby RJM » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:26 pm

Don, don't forget the next section of the Rule - partners may share clubs provided that the total number carried by them does not exceed 14.

Back to the question in the original post - is there a penalty, what is the penalty, and does the hole in one stand? Doug has suggested two strokes in stroke play (to A or A/B?), and imo, with those strokes, it's no longer a hole in one. What about match play?
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby Mr. Bean » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:29 pm

RJM wrote:Back to the question in the original post - is there a penalty, what is the penalty, and does the hole in one stand? Doug has suggested two strokes in stroke play (to A or A/B?), and imo, with those strokes, it's no longer a hole in one. What about match play?


Stroke play is in principle clear, a HIO means the score for that hole is 1, nothing else. Remember the USA kid who aced but received a slow play penalty on that particular hole :(

Match play is more interesting as it is about holes instead of strokes. One could argue that a HIO stands as there are no penalty strokes involved, but then again the guy loses that hole so one could argue he has no score for the hole at all.

And finally, if that would be an ace in match play why would it not be ace in stroke play as well? Same person, same shot, same result, or...?
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby Ron » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:06 pm

Hi Guys,

IMO, FWIW, I agree with Mr Bean re stroke play. A hole in one is a fact and is not to be confused, IMO, with the players score for the hole. In additiion,they are,IMO, separate issues.Thus I do not see any reason for loss of entitlement to the prize in the HOI competition.

With respect to match play, things are different as it is hole based.

Nevertheless, as in stroke play, I do not see any reason for not awarding the player the prize.
Referring to D33/7 where even when the player, in match play, is disqualified from the competition he is still entitled to his prize won prior to disqualification. It is interesting to note, in the Decisions listed under "Prizes", though I agree not as per the original post, their answer is always to honour the players entitlement in either code.

Regards,
Ron.
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby Mr. Bean » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:18 pm

Ron wrote:Hi Guys,

IMO, FWIW, I agree with Mr Bean re stroke play. A hole in one is a fact and is not to be confused, IMO, with the players score for the hole. In additiion,they are,IMO, separate issues.Thus I do not see any reason for loss of entitlement to the prize in the HOI competition.



It seems to me you have misunderstood me. IMO a HIO is official only if there is a number 1 on the score card.

Ron wrote:With respect to match play, things are different as it is hole based.

Nevertheless, as in stroke play, I do not see any reason for not awarding the player the prize.
Referring to D33/7 where even when the player, in match play, is disqualified from the competition he is still entitled to his prize won prior to disqualification. It is interesting to note, in the Decisions listed under "Prizes", though I agree not as per the original post, their answer is always to honour the players entitlement in either code.

Regards,
Ron.


Well, in match play the player loses the hole (or in team match is DQ'd for the hole) as soon as he makes a stroke with a borrowed club so he has not won any prize before being DQ'd.

There are certain requirements for a HIO to be official, a.o.t. it has to be a part of a stipulated round. So if I choose to play just 5 holes in the morning and I ace one of those it is not an official HIO. This is at least how it is in EGA regulations.

A really tough call but IMO the outcome should be the same regardless of the form of play.
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby RJM » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:37 pm

I'm disappointed in that it seems that few have read the penalty statement for the applicable Rule (4-4a and b).
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby Doug » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:15 pm

Aren't we the clever one. I didn't think of doing that.

So your ruling is?
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby RJM » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:27 pm

Here's the opinion that I provided:

Four ball stroke play - player A's score is three for that hole, not a hole in one. Player B incurs the same penalty of two strokes, Rules 4-4b and 31-6.

Four ball match play - Player A's score for the hole is one. Upon completion of the hole, the state of the match is adjusted by deducting one hole from team A/B, Rules 4-4b and 30-3d.
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby Doug » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:04 pm

Can you define the term 'hole in one'.
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby RJM » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:29 pm

Achieved a gross score of one on a hole.

I didn't think the definition would be a point of debate; it seems pretty well known. What's the issue?
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby don » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:29 pm

Doug, good question! My def;- result.
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby don » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:32 pm

RJM wrote:Don, don't forget the next section of the Rule - partners may share clubs provided that the total number carried by them does not exceed 14.


RJM, we already know they had more than 14 between them.
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby Doug » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:02 pm

RJM wrote:Achieved a gross score of one on a hole.

I didn't think the definition would be a point of debate; it seems pretty well known. What's the issue?


It is arguably not about a score but about the ball being holed with the first stroke of the hole.
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby Doug » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:05 pm

RJM wrote:Here's the opinion that I provided:

Four ball stroke play - player A's score is three for that hole, not a hole in one. Player B incurs the same penalty of two strokes, Rules 4-4b and 31-6.

Four ball match play - Player A's score for the hole is one. Upon completion of the hole, the state of the match is adjusted by deducting one hole from team A/B, Rules 4-4b and 30-3d.


So what is your answer to your question "Does the hole in one stand?"
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby RJM » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:21 pm

Doug wrote:
RJM wrote:Here's the opinion that I provided:

Four ball stroke play - player A's score is three for that hole, not a hole in one. Player B incurs the same penalty of two strokes, Rules 4-4b and 31-6.

Four ball match play - Player A's score for the hole is one. Upon completion of the hole, the state of the match is adjusted by deducting one hole from team A/B, Rules 4-4b and 30-3d.


So what is your answer to your question "Does the hole in one stand?"


See above highlighted portions. Stroke play - no hole in one. Match play - a hole in one.
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Re: Borrowed club

Postby don » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:51 pm

Upon "completion of the hole", is at the moment the player makes a stroke and loses the hole. What happens to the ball after that is of no relevance. IMO.
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