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Exception to the rule 6-6d

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Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby regole » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:20 pm

Hi All,
I take as a reference Q14 - MGA 2016:

""After completing his round, a competitor signed and returned his score card to the Committee. Before the event closed, the competitor discovered he had 15 clubs in his bag.""

In a Stableford competition, and how to Note 3 to Rule 32-1b, according to you, how you apply the penalty?
Thanks for your input.
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby regole » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:02 pm

:?

Hello everyone and apologize.
I find it strange that a day distance my question has not had an answer. What is this, questions too difficult, too banal or not relevant :?:
Regards.
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby dormie1360 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:36 pm

regole wrote::?

Hello everyone and apologize.
I find it strange that a day distance my question has not had an answer. What is this, questions too difficult, too banal or not relevant :?:
Regards.


Hello regole,

I love to talk about the rules, unfortunately I have no experience with Stableford and R32 is not taught by the USGA in their workshops. As I seldom have anything beneficial to add in this forum concerning the other 33 rules, (due to the experience level and knowledge base here), I doubt if R32 would be any different. :)
Regards,
John A.
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby Chippings » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:05 pm

O.K Regole.

15 clubs carried for the whole round. Penalty applied to first 2 holes(1 and 2) .in this case the penalty is 2 strokes per hole-- ( the penalty will vary according to the rule breached)

(A) If the penalty applied,( 2 strokes in this case), affects the points scored on the "specific hole" , then the additional penalty is also applied by deducting 2 points from the revised total points.
(B) If the Penalty applied to the specific hole does not affect the points scored on the hole (I.e the player has already scored"NIL" points)--- then the additional penalty deduction of 2 points is not applied to the total points.

Example 1. Player's total points on card is 36 points.
Hole 1 had shown 1 point and hole 2 had shown 0 points.
Therefore on hole 1 penalty of 2 stokes would make a difference.
On hole 2 stroke penalty would make no difference.

Adjusted score is 33points after player loses his point scored on hole 1 and the additional penalty of 2 points.
No adjustment needed for hole 2

I 'm sure someone can state thos in a simpler way. :mrgreen:
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby regole » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:57 pm

Hi Chippings

Clear your reasoning but beware that in Stableford competitions, when we deal with maximum penalty per round, all this is governed by the Notes to Rule 32-1b. So eventually the score obtained in the holes is irrelevant the purpose of applying additional penalties equired by the exception to the rule 6-6d.
It's my opinion that the player incurs a total of 8 penalty strokes to be deducted points from the final result. 4 strokes as Note 1 to Rule 32-1b for breach of rule 4-4a and 4 additional strokes provided by the exception to the rule 6-6d as Note 3 to rule 32-1b. I wanted your opinionon this.
Thanks anyway for your answers.
Regards
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:06 pm

regole wrote:Hi Chippings

Clear your reasoning but beware that in Stableford competitions, when we deal with maximum penalty per round, all this is governed by the Notes to Rule 32-1b. So eventually the score obtained in the holes is irrelevant the purpose of applying additional penalties equired by the exception to the rule 6-6d.
It's my opinion that the player incurs a total of 8 penalty strokes to be deducted points from the final result. 4 strokes as Note 1 to Rule 32-1b for breach of rule 4-4a and 4 additional strokes provided by the exception to the rule 6-6d as Note 3 to rule 32-1b. I wanted your opinionon this.
Thanks anyway for your answers.
Regards


Read R 32-1b Note 3 several times and it might become clear to you.
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby Chippings » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:14 am

Regole may well be correct.!
The new exception 6-6d may well not apply to multiple penalties involving adjustments to the total score where penalties are not referred back to specific holes.

It would seem grossly unfair to penalise the player 4 points who informed the committee before returning his card (32 -1 note 1 ) and potentially not deduct any points from a player who told the committee after returning his card.
Completely open to abuse!
In the meanwhile I am looking further into this matter ,!
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:00 am

[quote="Chippings"]Regole may well be correct.!
The new exception 6-6d may well not apply to multiple penalties involving adjustments to the total score where penalties are not referred back to specific holes.

It would seem grossly unfair to penalise the player 4 points who informed the committee before returning his card (32 -1 note 1 ) and potentially not deduct any points from a player who told the committee after returning his card.
Completely open to abuse!
In the meanwhile I am looking further into this matter ,!


I am also of the same opinion and when I saw the original post and looked at the note I was totally confused and did not offer an opinion. I gave my opinion on what I believe is what is meant by the note. However as one often hears the law is an *** or appears to be. I suspect and duly hope, that there is something that I have overlooked, as I find it very difficult to believe that the knowledgeable player is penalised heavily and the ignorant, one as far as the rules are concerned, does not get penalised.
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:33 pm

Chippings wrote:Regole may well be correct.!
The new exception 6-6d may well not apply to multiple penalties involving adjustments to the total score where penalties are not referred back to specific holes.

It would seem grossly unfair to penalise the player 4 points who informed the committee before returning his card (32 -1 note 1 ) and potentially not deduct any points from a player who told the committee after returning his card.
Completely open to abuse!
In the meanwhile I am looking further into this matter ,!


Following on from my previous reply, I have another doubt. Note 1 to R32-1b states that if a competitor is in breach of a Rule for which there is a maximum penalty per round, he must report the facts to the Committee before returning his score card. If he fails to do so he is disqualified. I understand from the original post that the breach was discovered after the card was returned but before closure of the competition which appears to result in disqualification.
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby regole » Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:19 pm

Adrian Mackenzie wrote:. If he fails to do so he is disqualified.


Hi Adrian,
But only in the case the player it is aware of breach the rule before delivering the score.
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:46 pm

regole wrote:Hi All,
I take as a reference Q14 - MGA 2016:

""After completing his round, a competitor signed and returned his score card to the Committee. Before the event closed, the competitor discovered he had 15 clubs in his bag.""

In a Stableford competition, and how to Note 3 to Rule 32-1b, according to you, how you apply the penalty?
Thanks for your input.


As the player has not reported a breach, which has a maximum penalty per round, when he returned his score card, R 32b Note 1 advises that he is disqualified. R 6-6d Exception states that the exception does not apply when the applicable penalty is disqualification, so Note 3 does not come into play in the example given in the OP.
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby regole » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:34 pm

Adrian Mackenzie wrote: R 6-6d Exception states that the exception does not apply when the applicable penalty is disqualification, so Note 3 does not come into play in the example given in the OP.



The exception does not apply only when the disqualification concerns the breach to a rule which does not include penalty strokes for the player (e.g. Agreement to waive rules, he had made a stroke with a non-conforming club, refusal to comply with a ruledid or not correct his error of playing a wrong ball etc etc ).
In our case the disqualification concern that the player fails to report his breach to the Committee to deduct four points from his score for breach to rule 4-4a. So the exception applies.

Regards
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:27 am

regole wrote:
Adrian Mackenzie wrote: R 6-6d Exception states that the exception does not apply when the applicable penalty is disqualification, so Note 3 does not come into play in the example given in the OP.



The exception does not apply only when the disqualification concerns the breach to a rule which does not include penalty strokes for the player (e.g. Agreement to waive rules, he had made a stroke with a non-conforming club, refusal to comply with a ruledid or not correct his error of playing a wrong ball etc etc ).
In our case the disqualification concern that the player fails to report his breach to the Committee to deduct four points from his score for breach to rule 4-4a. So the exception applies.

Regards


Regole,
In our case the disqualification concern that the player fails to report his breach to the Committee to deduct four points from his score for breach to rule 4-4a. So the exception applies.
See Note 1 R 32-1b in breach of a rule for which there is a maximum penalty per round, he must report the facts to the Committee before returning his card. If not as it is in this case, bye bye.
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:30 am

regole wrote:
Adrian Mackenzie wrote: R 6-6d Exception states that the exception does not apply when the applicable penalty is disqualification, so Note 3 does not come into play in the example given in the OP.



The exception does not apply only when the disqualification concerns the breach to a rule which does not include penalty strokes for the player (e.g. Agreement to waive rules, he had made a stroke with a non-conforming club, refusal to comply with a ruledid or not correct his error of playing a wrong ball etc etc ).
In our case the disqualification concern that the player fails to report his breach to the Committee to deduct four points from his score for breach to rule 4-4a. So the exception applies.

Regards


Regole,

Not my understanding but see my post a few minutes ago.
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby Ron » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:08 pm

Hi Adrian,

FWIW I share Regole's understanding of the penalties applying in Stableford and the application of Note3 attached to R32-1b.

The player, having signed and returned his score card now becomes aware he had 15clubs in his bag. That is what the OP states.
Therefore, the exception clause attached to R6-6d now applies. Given that the Rules are written with the integrity of the game uppermost, it saves him from a DQ by stating in part, "... before returning his score card, he did not know he had incurred.."
.
Furthermore, judging by his subsequent actions upon discovery of the 15 clubs, it would be reasonable to assume he was aware of the maximum 14 clubs permitted.

However, we are talking about the round he has just played without his knowledge of the 15clubs in his bag. So for the integrity of the game we have to accept it was an oversight on his part for the round just completed.

Thus, in accordance with the penalty statement attached to R4-4a the player is penalised the maximum of four points (two points per hole)and the additional penalty of four points (two points per hole) prescribed by R6-6d as per Note3 attached to R32-1b.

This combined total of eight points is deducted from the players gross points total for the round.
Which is what Regoles has stated, but not in a s many words, and I fully agree with.

regards,
Ron.
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:35 pm

Ron wrote:Hi Adrian,

FWIW I share Regole's understanding of the penalties applying in Stableford and the application of Note3 attached to R32-1b.

The player, having signed and returned his score card now becomes aware he had 15clubs in his bag. That is what the OP states.
Therefore, the exception clause attached to R6-6d now applies. Given that the Rules are written with the integrity of the game uppermost, it saves him from a DQ by stating in part, "... before returning his score card, he did not know he had incurred.."
.
Furthermore, judging by his subsequent actions upon discovery of the 15 clubs, it would be reasonable to assume he was aware of the maximum 14 clubs permitted.

However, we are talking about the round he has just played without his knowledge of the 15clubs in his bag. So for the integrity of the game we have to accept it was an oversight on his part for the round just completed.

Thus, in accordance with the penalty statement attached to R4-4a the player is penalised the maximum of four points (two points per hole)and the additional penalty of four points (two points per hole) prescribed by R6-6d as per Note3 attached to R32-1b.

This combined total of eight points is deducted from the players gross points total for the round.
Which is what Regoles has stated, but not in a s many words, and I fully agree with.

regards,
Ron.


Ron,

The original post was the following:

""After completing his round, a competitor signed and returned his score card to the Committee. Before the event closed, the competitor discovered he had 15 clubs in his bag.""

Rule 32-1b Note 1
Note 1: If a competitor is in breach of a Rule for which there is a maximum penalty per round, he must report the facts to the Committee before returning his score card; if he fails to do so, he is disqualified. The Committee will, from the total points scored for the round, deduct two points for each hole at which any breach occurred, with a maximum deduction per round of four points for each Rule breached.

Adrian
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby Ron » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:58 pm

Hi Adrian,

Thanks for responding to my post. For the present I will have to repectfully agree to disagree.

Hopefully all will become clearer in due course.

Regards,
Ron.
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:22 am

Ron wrote:Hi Adrian,

Thanks for responding to my post. For the present I will have to repectfully agree to disagree.

Hopefully all will become clearer in due course.

Regards,
Ron.


Ron,

In view of what is stated in the original post and Note 1 of R 32-1b, both of which I quoted in my reply, what is it that you disagree with? In my opinion there is no doubt that note 1 is applicable to the original post. I am therefore curious to know your reasoning as to why you consider that NOTE 1 is not applicable.

Rgds.
Adrian
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby Chippings » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:16 pm

In my last post I said I would investigate this question further.

I am pleased to say that I have received a definitive answer from the ruling bodies regarding breaches of rules which involve a maximum penalty adjustment penalty per round coupled with reporting requirements.

In our scenario the player is disqualified.
Quoted below is the relevant part.
----------------
" The exception to Rule 6-6d will never apply to a penalty of this type. This is based on the following:

- failing to report a breach of this type results in a penalty of disqualification (see Note 1 to Rule 32-1b) and
- the exception to Rule 6-6d does not apply to a penalty that results in a player's disqualification.

It is accurate to note that this is unique to a player in a Bogey, Par or Stableford competition and that a player in a similar situation in many other stroke-play formats would remain in the competition. This is however, based on the nature of these penalties and the resultant reporting requirement."

--------------------

The illustration I queried referred to 15 clubs but I widened the query to all breaches where there was a maximum penalty adjustment per round.

Well done to Adrian whose revised answer was in accord.

A simple one liner in Note 3 would have removed any doubts re interpretation.
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby regole » Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:39 pm

Hi Chippings
Thank you for keeping us informed about this. clap clap
I too am of the opinion that a simple one liner in Note 3 would have removed any doubts re interpretation :?

Regards.
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby Ron » Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:27 pm

Hi Chippings,

A thank you from me too and well done to Adrian.

Regards,
Ron.
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby regole » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:35 am

Chippings wrote:In my last post I said I would investigate this question further.

I am pleased to say that I have received a definitive answer from the ruling bodies regarding breaches of rules which involve a maximum penalty adjustment penalty per round coupled with reporting requirements.

In our scenario the player is disqualified.
Quoted below is the relevant part.
----------------
" The exception to Rule 6-6d will never apply to a penalty of this type. This is based on the following:

- failing to report a breach of this type results in a penalty of disqualification (see Note 1 to Rule 32-1b) and
- the exception to Rule 6-6d does not apply to a penalty that results in a player's disqualification.

It is accurate to note that this is unique to a player in a Bogey, Par or Stableford competition and that a player in a similar situation in many other stroke-play formats would remain in the competition. This is however, based on the nature of these penalties and the resultant reporting requirement
."


--------------------

The illustration I queried referred to 15 clubs but I widened the query to all breaches where there was a maximum penalty adjustment per round.

Well done to Adrian whose revised answer was in accord.

A simple one liner in Note 3 would have removed any doubts re interpretation.



:?
Sorry if return on the subject because I'm totally surprised.
Some time ago I had made the same question at RB's, today I had the answer that is in total contrast with the reply received by Chippings and that is that in our scenario the player is not disqualified but the exception to Rule 6-6d apply? :shock:

Quoted below is the relevant part:

"" in this situation 8 points would be deducted from the players score, i.e. as per Note 1 to Rule 32-1b, four points will be deducted for the breach of Rule 4-4, and as the player is effectively penalised for breaching this Rule for the maximum of two holes, an additional four points will be deducted for the breach of Rule 6-6d.""

How is it that the same body responsible for the rules give two different answers at a distance of such a short time? It is not possible :!:
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby RJM » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:22 pm

Sounds to me like apples and oranges. One ruling is given for "failure to report the facts to the Committee", which results in DQ and the Exception to 6-6d does not apply, while the other is how to apply the Exception when it has been reported to the Committee.
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby regole » Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:00 pm

RJM wrote:Sounds to me like apples and oranges. One ruling is given for "failure to report the facts to the Committee", which results in DQ and the Exception to 6-6d does not apply, while the other is how to apply the Exception when it has been reported to the Committee.



Hi RJM
I agree with you but the question that I have made is as follows:

""If after completing his round, a competitor signed and returned his score card to the Committee. Before the event closed, the competitor discovered he had 15 clubs in his bag""

In a Stableford competition, and how to Note 1 and 3 to Rule 32-1b, according to you, how you apply the penalty? Or the exception do not applies and the competitor is DQ as rule 32-1b Note 1 ?""

and not open to interpretation.
So we are at the starting point. Two opposing versions :shock:

Regards
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby Doug » Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:00 pm

If a competitor is in breach of a Rule for which there is a maximum penalty per round, he must report the facts to the Committee before returning his score card; if he fails to do so, he is disqualified.

In the situation you queried with the RB, did he report the facts to the committee before returning his score card?
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby regole » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:34 pm

Doug wrote:In the situation you queried with the RB, did he report the facts to the committee before returning his score card?


No, after returned his score card and before the event closed.

This was the question I posed.
________
""After completing his round, a competitor signed and returned his score card to the Committee. Before the event closed, the competitor discovered he had 15 clubs in his bag.""
___________

It may be that I have some problems with the language but for you what is the ruling of RB, DQ or exception to rule 6-6d in a Stableford competition:?:

Thank you and Regards
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby regole » Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:56 am

Chippings wrote:In my last post I said I would investigate this question further.
I am pleased to say that I have received a definitive answer from the ruling bodies regarding breaches of rules which involve a maximum penalty adjustment penalty per round coupled with reporting requirements.
In our scenario the player is disqualified.
Quoted below is the relevant part.
----------------
" The exception to Rule 6-6d will never apply to a penalty of this type. This is based on the following:

- failing to report a breach of this type results in a penalty of disqualification (see Note 1 to Rule 32-1b) and
- the exception to Rule 6-6d does not apply to a penalty that results in a player's disqualification.

It is accurate to note that this is unique to a player in a Bogey, Par or Stableford competition and that a player in a similar situation in many other stroke-play formats would remain in the competition. This is however, based on the nature of these penalties and the resultant reporting requirement."

--------------------

The illustration I queried referred to 15 clubs but I widened the query to all breaches where there was a maximum penalty adjustment per round.
Well done to Adrian whose revised answer was in accord.
A simple one liner in Note 3 would have removed any doubts re interpretation.


Hi Chippings

I do not know the exact query that you was asked because today I have had a further confirmation from RBs and
quoted below is the relevant part:
________
"""I do not know the exact query that was asked of the enquirer, so it is impossible for me to comment on why he received a different response. E.g. perhaps in the situation that he outlined, the player was aware, before he returned his card that he was in breach of the Rule.

All I can say is that the response I have given to you below is the agreed position of The R&A and USGA on this situation."""
_________

So on this situation the player is not DQ but the exception to rule 6-6d is applyed.
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby Chippings » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:42 pm

Regole

Let me update you as far as I am aware.

At England Golf's workshop in March , for all their tournament referees , the principal rules changes were reviewed.
As I had received the stableford ruling from the USGA this information was made known to all of the assembled referees.
During the 2 day seminar Englang Golf had occasion to speak to the R&A with regard to another matter and the stableford ruling was mentioned.
Their response was that there would not be a disqualification but an 8 point deduction -- this position in conflict with the USGA ruling.
As it is vital to know the correct answer --England Golf was given the task of requesting that the two bodies liaise to establish the correct ruling.
We are awaiting for the final answer.

I have found from previous experiences that sometimes the anomaly is due to a difference of opinion between the ruling bodies- ------ But more often than not is a result of the quality of the person answering the question.

Unsatisfactory for whichever reason.

I did not post this information initially as I felt it would be better to await the outcome rather than confuse the readers.-- unfortunately you became aware of the anomaly?

The same question was posed to both ruling bodies.

I attach below the initial part of my letter to the USGA .

"""If a player has incurred a penalty involving a maximum penalty per round( i.e 15 clubs) and realised this error before submitting his card the committee would adjust his total points by 4 points in line with rule 32-1b note1.

If the player did not know that he had breached this rule until after the score card has been submitted so that Rule 6-6d comes into effect .-- how does the new rule work .""

As soon as I receive definitive news from England Golf I will update everyone!
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby MikeH » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:45 pm

It appears this may all come down to the player's timeline of 'knowledge' of the breach. Note 1 to R32-1b is based on the player knowing before returning in his signed card whereas the OP indicates the 'knowledge' of the breach was after returning the card but before the event was closed.

Perhaps ?.....in this situation where the player 'did not know he had incurred' under R6-6d Exception now over-rides R32-1b Note 1? after all to comply with R32-1b Note 1 the player would need to have knowledge of the breach before returning his card.

Just my take on the matter :D
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Re: Exception to the rule 6-6d

Postby Chippings » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:29 pm

Well Guys
Regole's original question.

""After completing his round, a competitor signed and returned his score card to the Committee. Before the event closed, the competitor discovered he had 15 clubs in his bag.""

In a Stableford competition, and how to Note 3 to Rule 32-1b, according to you, how you apply the penalty?
Thanks for your input.[/quote]




Pleased to say that I have now received confirmation that the two ruling bodies are now in accord.

Ruling

It would be contrary to the objective of the new rule 6-6d to disqualify the player for a breach of this rule for non- reporting when the player was unaware of the breach at the time he submitted his card.
The penalty would be 8 points deduction from the total points scored.

( 4 points Deduction under R 32-1b note 1 -- too many clubs. And
4 points Deduction for the incorrect score card - R 32-1b note 3
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