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Line for putting

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Line for putting

Postby dormie1360 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:08 pm

This was recently asked.

Say I marked my ball, and I then took my putter and laid it down on the ground (the shaft) as a line to where I want to putt. I then placed the ball, with the alignment marker on the ball on that line of the shaft of the putter, picked up the putter and then putt. Is that legal?

8-2b says you can not touch the green to indicate the line for putting. I always thought of the "line for putting" to be from the ball towards the hole.....but now I'm not sure.

Thanks.
Regards,
John A.
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Re: Line for putting

Postby Ron » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:47 pm

Hi Dormie,

Just to be clear I understand your post.

It appears ther club-shaft is lying on an extension of the LOP, behind the ball. i.e. the ball on the green is between the hole and the shaft end. Is that correct?

If that is indeed the case, the routine you describe, IMO, is not in breach of R8-2b. The LOP does indeed start, as you state, in front of the ball to the hole. I do not interpret the placing of the club, as you describe, if I understand you correctly, as a "mark" within the meaning of the term as used in R8-2b.

Regards,
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Re: Line for putting

Postby JMC » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:48 pm

John – I can mention the following:

1. re the case you submit, I would not penalize assuming your putter shaft would lay some distance away from the line of putt

2. last year I played with an excellent referee (he is a Member of this site) and while I was looking at my line of putt, standing about 10 cm to the side of my line of putt (between my ball and the hole) I just touched the ground with my putter and then I could hear my friend stating with a nice smile that I had just earned 2 SP!

So now I am too sure what would happen in your case! Regards
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Re: Line for putting

Postby dormie1360 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:53 pm

Yes, my understanding is the putter is being layed on an extension away from the hole starting at a point just outside the ball mark.

My understanding is that the LOP starts at the ball and ends at the hole....touching it is covered in R16-1. So I don't see a violation under 16-1.

R8-2b talks about the LFP or line for putting, which I interpreted as being an "aim point" which may or may not coincide with the LOP. Also, I assumed the LFP can be past the hole. If my understanding correct, (which often is not), there is a difference between the LOP and LFP. That being the case, I just wasn't sure what constitutes the LFP.

Thanks for the help.
Regards,
John A.
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Re: Line for putting

Postby JMC » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:21 pm

OK John, but read again the Definition of LOP which includes "…..a reasonable distance on either side of the intended line"!
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Re: Line for putting

Postby dormie1360 » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:29 pm

Ok thanks guys, but just so I understand this......I'm being really dense. Is Line of Putt in the definitions and referenced in R16 different than the Line for Putting which is talked about in R8-2b? Could you be penalized under rule 8-2b for pointing out (touching the green) at a point past the hole to indicate the line for putting.
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Re: Line for putting

Postby Doug » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:03 am

dormie

You are not alone.
I have never seen a satisfactory or authoritative explanation of the difference.
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Re: Line for putting

Postby JMC » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:45 am

John A. – you ask the question: "Could you be penalized under rule 8-2b for pointing out (touching the green) at a point past the hole to indicate the line for putting."

My answer is yes!

Doug – without pretension on my part, I would say that the line of putt corresponds to the definition, whereas the line for putting could more correspond to a "line of play" however limited to the green! I don't know whether such an explanation can help and makes sense?
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Re: Line for putting

Postby Andrew » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:26 am

JMC - you are correct in your assertion in that a player is penalised under R8-2b for touching the green at a point past the hole to indicate the line for putting.

I agree with Doug regarding lacking an authoritative explanation of the difference. Some notes I have compiled might help (or again might not ape: )?

R16-1a covers touching the line of putt.
R8-2b covers indicating a line of play on the putting green. (though not using it as the defined term)
R8-2b does not allowing touching the putting green when the player's ball lies on the putting green.
Therefore it should be deduced that "line for putting" does not stop at the hole, and touching the putting green anywhere to point out an aiming point for a putt violates R8-2b.

Notice Decision 8-2b/2. The caddie is placing his foot in a position to point out a line for putting. He is not standing on the line of putt (if he had, he would have breached R16-1a)

Regards from overcast Norway,
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Re: Line for putting

Postby Doug » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:26 am

JMC

The two defined terms (lop & lop) are exactly the same except for the 'reasonable distance' bit.
I can't see any suggestion that lfp includes this element.

My post crossed with Andrew's so am adding the following.

See the diagram in 16-1e/1

Is not the lfp a tangential line from the ball running left off the curve indicating the line the player needs to aim along in order to get the borrow?

If this doesn't make sense I'll do a drawing later but have to go out just now
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Re: Line for putting

Postby Ron » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:12 am

Hi JMC,

I too agree with you. For my own understanding I have reasoned aloud below for comments.
Apologies for its length and any repeating of previously made comments.

L O Putt is a clearly defined term which is what R16-1 centres on.
R16-1a States, in part, “The line of putt must not be touched except:”
It may be helpful if we substitute the definition in the above we have, “ The line the player wishes to his ball to take after a stroke on the putting green must not be touched except:”

R8-2 centres on Indicating Line of Play On and Off the Putting Green
Interestingly, R8-2b refers, in part, “... point out a line for putting, but in doing so the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting.
Note. In the terms I have underlined there is no mention anywhere of line of putt in R8-2b.

Thus I agree with you, JMC, in that the line for putting differs from the line of putt. The former applies ANYWHERE on the putting green. While the latter is confined to the parameters set out in the definition and R16-1.

I have not previously given the difference much thought, but as a direct result of the interesting discussions and comments here I think I now have a better understanding in the application of both terms.
Regards,
Ron.
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Re: Line for putting

Postby Doug » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:59 am

I believe the lfp is along the red line in the attached ....


Image
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Re: Line for putting

Postby dormie1360 » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:01 pm

The diagram explains my understanding as well. Also, as was mentioned, I think if the powers to be had meant LOP only, they would have used that term in R8-2b. The fact that they do not, to me implies that they are indeed talking about something different.

Thanks to Doug and everyone else.

PS Can Westwood finally get it done? He looks good.
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Re: Line for putting

Postby Mr. Bean » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:23 pm

JMC wrote:Doug – without pretension on my part, I would say that the line of putt corresponds to the definition, whereas the line for putting could more correspond to a "line of play" however limited to the green! I don't know whether such an explanation can help and makes sense?


Agree totally. Line for putting is just an aiming direction, i.e. the direction a player wishes his ball to start it's travel. Line of putt is the path he wishes his ball to travel (into the hole, in most cases, I guess).

I cannot see why an authoritative explanation is needed for something this obvious. On the other hand, there are a multitude of Decsisions on matters of even greater simplicity :roll:
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Re: Line for putting

Postby Doug » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:06 pm

Perhaps they should have used the term 'line for aiming'.
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Re: Line for putting

Postby Ron » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:51 pm

Dear All,

Following on from our very recent interesting discussion on R8-2b I am still unclear on an aspect of this Rule.
It concerns "..before but not during the stroke.."

My question is;

If a caddie, standing OFF the putting green, tells the player to aim at his feet, and remains in that position during the stroke from the putting green, is there a breach of R8-2b?

And now to the US Open and Euro 2012. Come on Holland?

Regards,
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Re: Line for putting

Postby RD » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:17 pm

No-one may be placed on the extention of the line beyond the hole during the stroke, that would be a breach of Rule 8-2a

...and Yes, please! It would be very helpful if Holland could beat Portugal!
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Re: Line for putting

Postby Colin L » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:39 pm

:cry: Sorry RD
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Re: Line for putting

Postby Ron » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:07 am

RD,
Thanks for replying.
Apologies if I am missing something or misreading again. My question, since the ball lies ON the putting green, relates to R8-2b Line of Putt. I was aware of the reference you cite(R8-2a) but it refers to a line of play. As there is no such reference in R8-2b, it implies to me there is no breach of R8-2b in the circumstances I describe. Hence my enquiry.

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Re: Line for putting

Postby Mr. Bean » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:31 pm

Ron wrote:RD,
Thanks for replying.
Apologies if I am missing something or misreading again. My question, since the ball lies ON the putting green, relates to R8-2b Line of Putt. I was aware of the reference you cite(R8-2a) but it refers to a line of play. As there is no such reference in R8-2b, it implies to me there is no breach of R8-2b in the circumstances I describe. Hence my enquiry.

Regards,
Ron.


Your question was:

'If a caddie, standing OFF the putting green, tells the player to aim at his feet, and remains in that position during the stroke from the putting green, is there a breach of R8-2b?'

R8-2b says:

'When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either
of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for
putting,...'

Pretty straightforward breach of R8-2b to me. Whether the caddie is on or off the putting green is irrelevant.
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Re: Line for putting

Postby Ron » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:35 pm

Hi Mr.Bean
Thanks for your reply.

Just to be clear. Presumably, the player in D8-2b/2 was in breach of R8-2b for placing a mark (his foot) on the putting green. I realise now, the same answer would apply, OFF the putting green, by virtue of the last sentence in R8-2b which states, "A mark must not be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting". The absence of "putting green" in the last sentence is quite significant, which previously escaped me and the key in answering my question.

Regards,
Ron.
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