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Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

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Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Mr. Bean » Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:31 pm

I found this text from the ET Hard Card 2015:

’If a ball strikes an elevated power line, telephone line or cable, the stroke is cancelled…etc.’

In the end of the chapter there is an Exception:

’Ball striking elevated junction section of cable rising from the ground is not replayed.’


I do not understand what is an 'elevated junction section of cable', could someone explain it to me? Maybe with a fotograph?
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby RJM » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:01 am

Sorry, but I don't have a photo. At tour events which are televised, there are many cables laid to accommodate the telecasts. There are junctions where these cables are joined. Because of the potential for water intrusion, either from rain or irrigation, these junctions are often raised 6-10 inches off the ground for their protection. Further, the junctions may be protected by plastic bags or containers. I presume that these are what the Local Rule says are not covered under the Local Rule.
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Doug » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:26 am

That is what I assumed they are referring to.
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Mr. Bean » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:28 pm

So if I get it right the cable is attached to the high end of the pole and descends from there towards the ground. Then within some distance from the ground (6-10 inches) there is a junction between this cable and another cable and that latter cable is then heading towards the ground and lying there (or inside, if it is a permanent cable). Is that it?

If so, does the Local Rule mean that a stroke is cancelled & replayed if it strikes the cable between the junction and the top of the pole but not replayed if it strikes the lower part?

Would the same apply to a supporting wire and the junction anchoring it to the ground in a permanent installation?
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby RJM » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:26 pm

The cables I'm referring to are temporary and are strung along the ground, not on poles. The junctions are elevated 6-10 inches above the ground to keep moisture out of them.
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Ron » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:45 pm

Hi Mr. Bean,
Purely speculation on my part.
Since the LR refers to elevated power line, cables are usually laid along the ground except as RJ has indicated for protection from the elements etc.

"Ball striking elevated junction section rising from the ground" IMO," clarifies it is not to be interpreted as "elevated" as contemplated in the LR, therefore, not replayed. i.e, deemed to be at ground level.

Regards,
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Mr. Bean » Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:45 am

Thank You all for replies, I think I finally got it.
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Mr. Bean » Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:08 am

One further question on this issue.

Are guy wires supporting the poles included in the concept of 'elevated cables' ? In other words, is a stroke deflected by a guy wire cancelled and replayed?
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby MikeH » Sat Apr 23, 2016 6:18 am

See Note at bottom of Page 150 - so I assume it would depend on how the LR is written up.
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Mr. Bean » Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:07 pm

MikeH wrote:See Note at bottom of Page 150 - so I assume it would depend on how the LR is written up.


Indeed, but what if that structure is permanent, i.e. old telephone cables with poles and supporting wires, would the supporting wires be treated equal to the elevated cable?

And what about the poles?

Does anybody have any experience of a LR of this nature?
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby RJM » Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:54 pm

See Decision 338-/13. The Committee has the authority to include the poles or towers supporting permanent overhead power lines, and, imo, wires supporting said poles or towers.
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Doug » Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:57 am

Of the ones I have encountered, those with the pole/tower outside the course do not give relief for supporting guys and pole/pylon, but those situated on the course do.
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Mr. Bean » Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:38 pm

Doug wrote:Of the ones I have encountered, those with the pole/tower outside the course do not give relief for supporting guys and pole/pylon, but those situated on the course do.


That seems to be one of the often used options and to me that is the one that makes the most sense.

What I have been after here is whether those supporting / guy wires automatically have same status as the elevated cables and based on what I have read here and what the page 150 recommended LR says they do not have.

Does anybody disagree with that interpretation?
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Colin L » Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:10 pm

I agree. The cable/powerline, the pylons and any supporting wires are all parts of an immovable obstruction. The basic LR states that if a ball hits the cable/powerline the stroke is cancelled. That is exclusive; it does not refer to anything other than the line. If you want the stroke also to be cancelled if a ball hits any other part - the pylons and wires - that has to be added on.
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Q8 » Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:00 pm

Colin L wrote:I agree. The cable/powerline, the pylons and any supporting wires are all parts of an immovable obstruction. The basic LR states that if a ball hits the cable/powerline the stroke is cancelled. That is exclusive; it does not refer to anything other than the line. If you want the stroke also to be cancelled if a ball hits any other part - the pylons and wires - that has to be added on.


Would the text Mr Bean quoted from HC ’If a ball strikes an elevated power line, telephone line or cable, the stroke is cancelled…etc.’ include the guy wires or not? The word 'cable'?
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby RJM » Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:43 pm

Note that the verbiage on page 150 of the Rule book is part of the Temporary Immovable Obstruction (TIO) Local Rule. The reference local Rule for overhead power lines is in Decision 33-8/13.
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Mr. Bean » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:29 pm

RJM wrote:Note that the verbiage on page 150 of the Rule book is part of the Temporary Immovable Obstruction (TIO) Local Rule. The reference local Rule for overhead power lines is in Decision 33-8/13.


So do You agree or disagree with my question?
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby RJM » Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:02 pm

Since the wording on page 150 does not apply to permanent overhead power lines, please state your question again - then I'll respond.
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby MikeH » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:18 am

Now I'm confused.....the LR in the OP is per pg150 and not R33-8/13 and does not mention overhead power cables therefore I assume it is some temporary elevated cable etc as part of an event but now we are on permanent overhead power line. So can we clarify has this topic moved from TIO to permanent overhead power lines or was it never TIO? and are we now discussing purely any supporting guy wires ? IMO whether it's TIO elevated cables or permanent power lines the inclusion of such guy wires would be at the discretion of the of the Committee in how they are to be treated.
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Q8 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:33 am

The OP's quote is from ET hard card with heading "8. Permanent Elevated Cables", nothing to do with TIO.

There is debate ongoing somewhere else whether the word "cable" includes guy wires or not.
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby MikeH » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:13 am

Ah-ha, all becomes clear, OP has incomplete details...thanks
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Mr. Bean » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:42 am

Here is the entire text from ET Hard Card:

'If a ball strikes an elevated power line, telephone line or cable, the stroke is cancelled and the player must play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was played in accordance with Rule 20-5 (Making Next Stroke from Where Previous Stroke Made). If the ball is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted.
Exception: Ball striking elevated junction section of cable rising from the ground is not replayed.’

My question: Is a ball striking a supporting / guy wire of a pylon supporting an elevated power line etc. described in this Local Rule cancelled and replayed? In other words, are those elevated cables equated with supporting wires even though there is no mentioning of any supporting wires in the Local Rule on the ET HC?
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby RJM » Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:31 pm

Imo, that local Rule does not include the poles/pylons or any supporting cables; a ball striking the pole/pylon or any supporting cables must be played as it lies.
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Mr. Bean » Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:41 pm

RJM wrote:Imo, that local Rule does not include the poles/pylons or any supporting cables; a ball striking the pole/pylon or any supporting cables must be played as it lies.


Anybody disagree with RJM? I don't.
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Colin L » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:19 pm

Oh dear, I’m not sure any more what I am agreeing or disagreeing about or with whom. I will feel better after a wee lie down. :)

What I was agreeing to above was about the 33-8/13 Local Rule which probably added to confusion. But in so doing I think I was agreeing in advance with RJM.
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby MikeH » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:27 am

Thanks Colin, I honestly thought it was just me losing the plot but I think I have to agree with RJM...
"Imo, that local Rule does not include the poles/pylons or any supporting cables; a ball striking the pole/pylon or any supporting cables must be played as it lies."

Phew....

Mr.Bean ...apparently the above entire text does not include the heading 'Permanent Elevated Cables' which for those of us not seeing the ET hard hard assume we are dealing with TIO :-)
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Q8 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:47 am

Here are some older and newer HC's for different Tours http://www.regolegolf.com/cms/index.php?id=170
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Mr. Bean » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:35 pm

MikeH wrote:Thanks Colin, I honestly thought it was just me losing the plot but I think I have to agree with RJM...
"Imo, that local Rule does not include the poles/pylons or any supporting cables; a ball striking the pole/pylon or any supporting cables must be played as it lies."

Phew....

Mr.Bean ...apparently the above entire text does not include the heading 'Permanent Elevated Cables' which for those of us not seeing the ET hard hard assume we are dealing with TIO :-)


Mike, would Your ruling be different if it were a TIO, considering there is no mentioning of supporting wires in that Local Rule?
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby MikeH » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:41 pm

As per Note pg.150...if a ball is deflected off guy wire then play as it lies unless LR in place that they are to be treated as elevated power lines or cables.

Apologies for my previous misunderstanding.
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Re: Local Rule for elevated power lines etc.

Postby Doug » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:28 pm

A picture of the part that is not a cable

Image[/URL]
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pylon-insulators.jpg
pylon-insulators.jpg (50.04 KiB) Viewed 330 times
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