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Lost ball-marker

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Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:03 pm

RJM wrote:it must be estimated and the ball replaced by dropping as near as possible to the estimated spot.


I would never ever instruct a player to replace his ball by dropping it as it does not make sense to me. The dictionary advises that to replace means you put something back in its previous position. In your example R 18 is applicable but as the spot is not known and the ball cannot be replaced, then Note 3 kicks in which refers to R 20-3c - R 20-3 c (i) through the green the ball must be dropped as near as possible. (iii) on the putting green- the ball must be placed.

D 20-1/9 - must place his ball.

FYG I have been a referee in many competitions.
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Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby RJM » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:40 pm

In 20-1/9, the players ball was marked on the putting green and an outside agency removed the marker. Since he doesn't know the spot, he must follow 20-3c, and replace his ball. Rule 20-3c says if the ball was on the putting green, he places his ball as near as possible (to the estimated spot). If this ball had been off the green in these circumstances, Rule 20-3c says he would drop the ball as near as possible to the estimated spot. Estimating the spot is covered in Decision 20-2c/1.5 (the last paragraph specifically includes 20-3c).
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Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Mr. Bean » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:52 pm

Adrian Mackenzie wrote:
RJM wrote:it must be estimated and the ball replaced by dropping as near as possible to the estimated spot.


I would never ever instruct a player to replace his ball by dropping it as it does not make sense to me. The dictionary advises that to replace means you put something back in its previous position. In your example R 18 is applicable but as the spot is not known and the ball cannot be replaced, then Note 3 kicks in which refers to R 20-3c - R 20-3 c (i) through the green the ball must be dropped as near as possible. (iii) on the putting green- the ball must be placed.

D 20-1/9 - must place his ball.

FYG I have been a referee in many competitions.


Adrian,

what RJM is saying is that when in the Rules, such as 18-1, it is said 'ball must be replaced' it does not necessarily mean that the ball needs to be replaced literally but also dropping may come into picture. This is a common practice in the Rules in order to keep the text short and concise, otherwise lots of Rules had to be written as such under other Rules which would be very impractical.

When on the course giving a ruling to a player you naturally instruct them according to the correct procedure instead of merely quoting the main Rule. Anything else would be poor refereeing.
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Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:25 pm

what RJM is saying is that when in the Rules, such as 18-1, it is said 'ball must be replaced' it does not necessarily mean that the ball needs to be replaced literally but also dropping may come into picture. This is a common practice in the Rules in order to keep the text short and concise, otherwise lots of Rules had to be written as such under other Rules which would be very impractical.

For me R 18-1 simply states that the ball must be replaced. The reader has to check to see if there are any notes to the rule and if they are applicable to the incident. In this particular incident Note 3 kicks in and the replacing option no longer exists. I would advise the player that to take relief he is obliged to drop the ball as near as possible to the place where it lay. I would never advise the player to replace the ball by dropping it as near as possible to the place where it lay.
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Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby RJM » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:53 pm

Adrian Mackenzie wrote:what RJM is saying is that when in the Rules, such as 18-1, it is said 'ball must be replaced' it does not necessarily mean that the ball needs to be replaced literally but also dropping may come into picture. This is a common practice in the Rules in order to keep the text short and concise, otherwise lots of Rules had to be written as such under other Rules which would be very impractical.

For me R 18-1 simply states that the ball must be replaced. The reader has to check to see if there are any notes to the rule and if they are applicable to the incident. In this particular incident Note 3 kicks in and the replacing option no longer exists. I would advise the player that to take relief he is obliged to drop the ball as near as possible to the place where it lay. I would never advise the player to replace the ball by dropping it as near as possible to the place where it lay.

Please clarify a couple of points:
1. 'the replacing option no longer exists"? Why do you say this. Rule 18-1 is still the applicable Rule and replacing is done by dropping when the precise spot is not known. It's not an "option".
2. "to take relief"? In the situation we're discussing, the player is not taking "relief". He's proceeding as prescribed by Rule 18-1 and replacing his ball (by dropping if the precise spot is not known).
3. My discussion with the player would go something like this -"Your ball was moved by an outside agency and it needs to be replaced. Since we don't know the exact spot, we'll estimate it and then you'll drop the ball as near as possible to that spot. If it lands nearer the hole than that spot or rolls closer to the hole than that spot, it will have to be re-dropped."
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Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:00 pm

RJM wrote:1. 'the replacing option no longer exists"? Why do you say this. Rule 18-1 is still the applicable Rule and replacing is done by dropping when the precise spot is not known. It's not an "option".


As the player is not able to replace his ball because it is impossible to determine the spot where the ball is to be replaced, the procedure to follow is explained in R 20-3c. I would not say the replacing is done by dropping.

Adrian Mackenzie wrote:2. "to take relief"? In the situation we're discussing, the player is not taking "relief". He's proceeding as prescribed by Rule 18-1 and replacing his ball (by dropping if the precise spot is not known).


Sloppy on my part. I should have said that as the point where the ball lay was not determinable, he was required to drop the ball as nearly as possible to the spot where the ball lay.

RJM wrote:3. My discussion with the player would go something like this -"Your ball was moved by an outside agency and it needs to be replaced. Since we don't know the exact spot, we'll estimate it and then you'll drop the ball as near as possible to that spot. If it lands nearer the hole than that spot or rolls closer to the hole than that spot, it will have to be re-dropped."


I would not go into the details of all or some of the instances which would require a re-drop, but would simply observe the player drop the ball, and if required would explain to him the reasons why a re-drop was necessary. When I observe a player in the process of dropping and see that he is likely to drop nearer the hole, beyond the number of club lengths, below shoulder height etc. I advise him before he has dropped the ball. I find this to be a very efficient way to handle the situation.
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Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby RJM » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:24 pm

As the player is not able to replace his ball because it is impossible to determine the spot where the ball is to be replaced, the procedure to follow is explained in R 20-3c. I would not say the replacing is done by dropping.

de facto replacing.
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Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:18 am

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine.
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Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby RJM » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:38 am

Of course.
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Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby dormie1360 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:15 pm

I often feel as if I'm playing the village idiot in this forum, and I'm not sure I fully understand what the disagreement is, but I will share something from a RB when discussing Placing and Replacing. Below is straight from the RB.


Placing: Putting this ball on this spot for the first time.
1) Putting the original ball on a new spot.
2) Putting a substituted ball on a new spot.
3) Putting a substituted ball on the original spot.

Replacing: Everything else
1) Putting the original ball back on the original spot.
2) Dropping the ball (or a ball),, required to be replaced,
as near as possible to an estimated spot not
precisely known.
Regards,
John A.
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Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby don » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:18 am

dormie1360 wrote:I often feel as if I'm playing the village idiot in this forum,


John, That position is reserved for me!
Don

For "replace" read "Put back into play" Covers it all?
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