Welcome
Welcome to golfrules

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. In addition, registered members also see less advertisements. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free, so please, join our community today!

Lost ball-marker

Use this forum to discuss hypos' and what meanings lie behind the rules. Owing to some unwanted visitors it is now necessary to register as a member to post any questions or answers you may have regarding the Rules of Golf.
once you have done that you will be able to post.
Sorry for any inconvenience this may cause.
We do not generally discuss H/cap questions but there is no harm in trying, someone on the forum may know the answer. For H/Cap questions WWW.handicapmaster.org is recommended.

Moderators: DC, Ron, Johanna

Lost ball-marker

Postby 999Q » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:20 am

I posed this question on my current blog (http://www.barryrhodes.com/2016/01/status-of-ball-on-putting-green.html)
“Having marked my ball on the green with a fairly transparent green marker I couldn’t find it when it came to my turn to putt. If I couldn’t find it within 5 minutes is it a lost ball situation?”
My suggested ruling is that, following the principle in Decision 20-1/5.5, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke and they must estimate where their ball was at rest before it was marked and place the ball there, ensuring that it is not placed nearer to the hole. I am being challenged on this ruling. Comments please.

Barry
999Q
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:08 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Your location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Doug » Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:20 pm

Barry

Have a look at this.

lost-ball-marker-t2409.html

I still favour 20-1.5.5. Mr Bean's comment sums it up.
User avatar
Doug
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3261
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:25 pm
Location: Wetherby, UK
Your location: UK

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby 999Q » Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:33 pm

Apologies everyone. I cannot believe that I missed this recent post.

Incidentally, I am no longer receiving advice that there has been a reply to a subject that I have started. I have checked my posting profile and the 'Notify me upon replies by default' button is still checked. Is this something that others are experiencing, or is there another preference that I should check?

Barry
Last edited by 999Q on Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
999Q
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:08 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Your location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby regole » Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:36 pm

Hi Barry,

if we are sure that the ball had been properly marked before it is lifted and if anything highlights that he was the player to move the marker, imho, there would be no alternative to 20-3c. So no penalty.

Regards.
regole
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:16 pm
Your location: Cagliari / Sardegna

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Sat Jan 23, 2016 6:31 pm

If I had to make the decision, I would follow the guidelines of R 6-8 d Note; If the spot where the ball is to be replaced is impossible to determine, it must be estimated and the ball placed on the estimated spot. The provisions of R 20-3c do not apply.

Adrian
Adrian Mackenzie
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:18 pm
Your location: SP Brazil

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby RJM » Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:24 pm

Adrian Mackenzie wrote:If I had to make the decision, I would follow the guidelines of R 6-8 d Note; If the spot where the ball is to be replaced is impossible to determine, it must be estimated and the ball placed on the estimated spot. The provisions of R 20-3c do not apply.

Adrian


I believe 20-3c does apply, after all, it says "If it is impossible to determine the spot where the ball is to be placed or replaced....." and that's what we're talking about. In fact, I'd suggest that the procedure in 6-8d is based on 20-3c; it has been modified so that every player has the opportunity to place their ball on resumption rather than some being required to drop.
RJM
 
Posts: 898
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:09 pm

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby regole » Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:33 pm

Adrian Mackenzie wrote:............ The provisions of R 20-3c do not apply.



The ball was lifted under a Rule that requires the replacement -rule 16-1b- (see Rule 20-1) then, in the circumstance, it applies the rule 20-3c.

Regards
regole
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:16 pm
Your location: Cagliari / Sardegna

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Sun Jan 24, 2016 1:34 pm

regole wrote:
Adrian Mackenzie wrote:............ The provisions of R 20-3c do not apply.



The ball was lifted under a Rule that requires the replacement -rule 16-1b- (see Rule 20-1) then, in the circumstance, it applies the rule 20-3c.


Regole,

In R 6-8d the ball if lifted it would have been lifted under a rule which requires replacement.
In D 20-1/7 the ball would have been lifted under a rule which requires replacement.
In my opinion the situation being discussed should follow the ruling in D 20-1/7. However this opinion seems to contradict D 20-1/10.5.

Adrian
Adrian Mackenzie
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:18 pm
Your location: SP Brazil

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Mr. Bean » Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:13 pm

Adrian Mackenzie wrote:
regole wrote:
Adrian Mackenzie wrote:............ The provisions of R 20-3c do not apply.



The ball was lifted under a Rule that requires the replacement -rule 16-1b- (see Rule 20-1) then, in the circumstance, it applies the rule 20-3c.


Regole,

In R 6-8d the ball if lifted it would have been lifted under a rule which requires replacement.
In D 20-1/7 the ball would have been lifted under a rule which requires replacement.
In my opinion the situation being discussed should follow the ruling in D 20-1/7. However this opinion seems to contradict D 20-1/10.5.

Adrian


What do You mean by contradicting? There is no penalty for the owner of the ball-marker in either of the cases.
Mr. Bean
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:26 pm
Your location: Finland, Vantaa

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:43 pm

If both incidents occurred through the green the ball would be dropped in D 20-1/10.5 and placed in D 20-1/7.
Adrian Mackenzie
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:18 pm
Your location: SP Brazil

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Mr. Bean » Sun Jan 24, 2016 3:15 pm

Adrian Mackenzie wrote:If both incidents occurred through the green the ball would be dropped in D 20-1/10.5 and placed in D 20-1/7.


Why?
Mr. Bean
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:26 pm
Your location: Finland, Vantaa

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:02 pm

D 20-1/10.5 It must be placed on the spot from which it was lifted ( R 20-3a)


D 20-1/7 as near as possible to the spot where it lay.
Adrian Mackenzie
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:18 pm
Your location: SP Brazil

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Mr. Bean » Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:15 pm

Adrian Mackenzie wrote:D 20-1/10.5 It must be placed on the spot from which it was lifted ( R 20-3a)


D 20-1/7 as near as possible to the spot where it lay.


Are we reading different Decisions because in both of my Decisions the ball is placed, not dropped?
Mr. Bean
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:26 pm
Your location: Finland, Vantaa

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:17 pm

Mr. Bean wrote:
Adrian Mackenzie wrote:D 20-1/10.5 It must be placed on the spot from which it was lifted ( R 20-3a)


D 20-1/7 as near as possible to the spot where it lay.


Are we reading different Decisions because in both of my Decisions the ball is placed, not dropped?


Yes but you seemed to have missed the important factor that my post stated :


If both incidents occurred[url]through the green[/url] the ball would be dropped in D 20-1/10.5 and placed in D 20-1/7.
Adrian Mackenzie
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:18 pm
Your location: SP Brazil

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby gbower » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:02 pm

Adrian posted
If both incidents occurred[url]through the green[/url] the ball would be dropped in D 20-1/10.5 and placed in D 20-1/7.


Where does it say in those decisions that it must be dropped????
gbower
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:37 pm
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Your location: Ottawa, Ontario

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:17 pm

gbower wrote:Adrian posted
If both incidents occurred[url]through the green[/url] the ball would be dropped in D 20-1/10.5 and placed in D 20-1/7.


Where does it say in those decisions that it must be dropped????


20-1/10.5 Ball-Marker Moved by Wind or Casual Water During Stipulated Round
Q.During a stipulated round, a player marked the position of and lifted his ball under a Rule. Prior to the player replacing his ball, wind or casual water moved his ball-marker. What is the procedure?

A.The ball or ball-marker must be replaced without penalty. If a ball has been lifted under a Rule which requires it to be replaced, it must be placed on the spot from which it was lifted (Rule 20-3a).

c. Spot Not Determinable
If it is impossible to determine the spot where the ball is to be placed or replaced:

(i)

through the green , the ball must be dropped as near as possible to the place where it lay
but not in a hazard or on a putting green;
Adrian Mackenzie
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:18 pm
Your location: SP Brazil

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby gbower » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:08 am

20-1/10.5 Ball-Marker Moved by Wind or Casual Water During Stipulated Round
Q.During a stipulated round, a player marked the position of and lifted his ball under a Rule. Prior to the player replacing his ball, wind or casual water moved his ball-marker. What is the procedure?

A.The ball or ball-marker must be replaced without penalty. If a ball has been lifted under a Rule which requires it to be replaced, it must be placed on the spot from which it was lifted (Rule 20-3a).

c. Spot Not Determinable
If it is impossible to determine the spot where the ball is to be placed or replaced:

(i)

through the green , the ball must be dropped as near as possible to the place where it lay but not in a hazard or on a putting green;


In both decisions 20-1/10.5 & 20-1/7 they place the ball and don't even mention Rule 20-3c which you are mentioning re Spot Not Determinable. If it was marked it was determinable.
gbower
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:37 pm
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Your location: Ottawa, Ontario

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Doug » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:36 am

gbower wrote: If it was marked it was determinable.

Does this not refer to the situation after the marker disappeared?
If the spot is now determinable by reference to something other than the marker (a pitchmark say) the ball is replaced o/w dropped?
User avatar
Doug
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3261
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:25 pm
Location: Wetherby, UK
Your location: UK

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:57 am

gbower wrote:
20-1/10.5 Ball-Marker Moved by Wind or Casual Water During Stipulated Round
Q.During a stipulated round, a player marked the position of and lifted his ball under a Rule. Prior to the player replacing his ball, wind or casual water moved his ball-marker. What is the procedure?

A.The ball or ball-marker must be replaced without penalty. If a ball has been lifted under a Rule which requires it to be replaced, it must be placed on the spot from which it was lifted (Rule 20-3a).

c. Spot Not Determinable
If it is impossible to determine the spot where the ball is to be placed or replaced:

(i)

through the green , the ball must be dropped as near as possible to the place where it lay but not in a hazard or on a putting green;


In both decisions 20-1/10.5 & 20-1/7 they place the ball and don't even mention Rule 20-3c which you are mentioning re Spot Not Determinable. If it was marked it was determinable.


In D 20-1/10.5 it mentions R 20-3a. If the spot is not determinable and the ball was originally lying through the green, the player is obliged to proceed under R 20-3c i.e. the ball is to be dropped.

In D 20-1/7 if the ball had been lying through the green, the player is obliged to proceed by placing the ball as near as possible to the spot where it lay.

In D 20-1/9 if the ball had been lying through the green, the player would have had to drop the ball as near as possible to the spot where it lay. R 20-3c
Adrian Mackenzie
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:18 pm
Your location: SP Brazil

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Mr. Bean » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:32 pm

But Adrian, you have now added your own elements to those two Decisions as neither of them say that the spot is not determinable. If it is not then you are correct, TTG the ball must be dropped.

Btw, it is not said where exactly those situations take place but clearly it is assumed that the spot is determinable.
Mr. Bean
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:26 pm
Your location: Finland, Vantaa

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:19 pm

you have now added your own elements to those two Decisions as neither of them say that the spot is not determinable.

I should have clarified it in my original post but I personally assume that if a ball marker has moved from a position through the green, as the chances of replacing it correctly on the spot are virtually zero, it should in the vast majority of the cases require the ball to be dropped. The problem does not exist on the green because although replacing on the spot is normally equally difficult, a best estimate to place is accepted.

I am curious to know why in D 20-1/9, R 20-3c is cited, but in D 20-1/10.5 it is R 20-3a. Personally I would have thought it should be the same in both.
Adrian Mackenzie
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:18 pm
Your location: SP Brazil

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby regole » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:42 pm

Adrian Mackenzie wrote:
I am curious to know why in D 20-1/9, R 20-3c is cited, but in D 20-1/10.5 it is R 20-3a. Personally I would have thought it should be the same in both.


Hi Adrian
Imo it is not the same situation.
In D 20-1/10.5 we are faced with a matter of fact. We see the mark-ball which leaves the original position, carried away by the wind or water, and then presumable we know the position in which the ball must be placed or replaced ,while in D 20-1/9 the mark-ball is "disappeared" and therefore is presumable that the exact position is not known so that the point has to be estimated.

Regards
regole
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:16 pm
Your location: Cagliari / Sardegna

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:45 pm

Regole,



We see the mark-ball which leaves the original position, carried away by the wind or water, and then presumable we know the position in which the ball must be placed or replaced ,while in D 20-1/9 the mark-ball is "disappeared" and therefore is presumable that the exact position is not known so that the point has to be estimated.

Possibly the movement of the ball is noticed as soon as it starts to move but personally believe more likely that it will either be noticed during its movement or realised after it has come to a stop. Even if it is noticed as soon as it starts to move, what are the chances that somebody was close enough to identify the spot? My example both relate to through the green. If D 20-1/7 was through the green it would be a case of best estimate and place.
Adrian Mackenzie
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:18 pm
Your location: SP Brazil

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby RJM » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:23 am

Adrian, you wrote:
In D 20-1/10.5 it mentions R 20-3a. If the spot is not determinable and the ball was originally lying through the green, the player is obliged to proceed under R 20-3c i.e. the ball is to be dropped.

In D 20-1/7 if the ball had been lying through the green, the player is obliged to proceed by placing the ball as near as possible to the spot where it lay.

In D 20-1/9 if the ball had been lying through the green, the player would have had to drop the ball as near as possible to the spot where it lay. R 20-3c


Be aware that sometimes when a Rule says the ball is to be "replaced", it will have to be "replaced" by dropping.
Consider the situation where a referee is told by a spectator that a player's ball on the fairway was moved by a fellow-competitor's ball. Rule 18-1 is the applicable and it says that the ball must be replaced. Since nobody knows the precise location of the ball, it must be estimated and the ball replaced by dropping as near as possible to the estimated spot.
RJM
 
Posts: 898
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:09 pm

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:15 pm

RJM wrote:Be aware that sometimes when a Rule says the ball is to be "replaced", it will have to be "replaced" by dropping.
Consider the situation where a referee is told by a spectator that a player's ball on the fairway was moved by a fellow-competitor's ball. Rule 18-1 is the applicable and it says that the ball must be replaced. Since nobody knows the precise location of the ball, it must be estimated and the ball replaced by dropping as near as possible to the estimated spot.


Appreciated but R 18 NOTE 3 covers this. In the example you quote it makes a lot of sense to drop the ball as it had not been previously marked and could have involved even the spectator being no where near where the incident occurred. This could result in a player taking a very favourable lie if allowed to place the ball. In all of the cases I cite the ball has been marked, presumably with precision which meant that at least someone had a close look at the lie.
In D 20-1/7 the player is instructed to to replace as near as possible to the spot where it lay. This means that he does not know the exact spot but he is still instructed to place as near as possible, and not to drop the ball.
Adrian Mackenzie
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:18 pm
Your location: SP Brazil

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby RJM » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:57 pm

I guess that's why D20-1/7 is an equity Decision, but maybe it doesn't need to be as 20-3c could cover it. BTW, why do you think that the lie of the ball is involved? It's not mentioned in the Decision and the lie was not altered.
RJM
 
Posts: 898
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:09 pm

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:44 pm

I had interpreted that D 20-1/7 involved equity because the rules did not cover the situation of a ball marker being moved accidentally by an opponent's caddie. I only think the lie of the ball is, or may be involved, is because the answer states as near as possible to the spot, which I understood that the spot was not known.
Adrian Mackenzie
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:18 pm
Your location: SP Brazil

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby RJM » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:16 pm

I'm re-reading 20-1/7 again. You said earlier that it obliged the player to proceed by placing his ball. In fact, it doesn't - it says to replace the ball. The equity portion may well be because the ball-marker was moved, not the ball itself. Replacing the ball could be by dropping it as discussed earlier.
RJM
 
Posts: 898
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:09 pm

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:05 am

Please explain how a ball can be replaced if the position is estimated. My initial reply was replace as the decision answer advises but I changed it to place as I believe it is more correct.
Adrian Mackenzie
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:18 pm
Your location: SP Brazil

Re: Lost ball-marker

Postby RJM » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:18 am

As was posted earlier -
Consider the situation where a referee is told by a spectator that a player's ball on the fairway was moved by a fellow-competitor's ball. Rule 18-1 is the applicable and it says that the ball must be replaced. Since nobody knows the precise location of the ball, it must be estimated and the ball replaced by dropping as near as possible to the estimated spot.

As prescribed by Rule 18-1. What else could the player do but estimate the spot and then drop? Any time the player does not know the precise spot for something, he must use his best endeavors/honest judgement to estimate it. I'm sure that you supervised such events.
RJM
 
Posts: 898
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:09 pm

Next

Return to Rules of Golf discussions and meanings

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron
suspicion-preferred