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OB lost or not?

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OB lost or not?

Postby JMC » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:14 pm

Hi all
I would appreciate your opinion on the case submitted below under II and III.

I.
A player's drive lands in a high rough (close to a WH).
After a 2 minute search, the player thinks his ball is in the WH without KVC. He drops a ball according to R 26-1b and plays. At that moment, the OB is lost and the player has to proceed as per D 26-1/3.

II.
A player's drive lands in a high rough (close to a WH). Fearing that his ball (A 1) could be lost, he plays a provisional ball (A 2).
After a 2 minute search, the player thinks that his ball (A 1) is in the WH without KVC. He drops a ball (A 3) according to R 26-1b and plays. At that moment, the PB is lost (D 27-2a/4).
If the OB (A 1) is found within the 5 minutes, is it still in play or is it also lost and should the player continue to play with ball A 3)?

III. If A 1 is not lost, what will be the player' score after having played 1 more stroke with A 1?

Thanks for your opinion and regards – JMC
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby Doug » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:10 pm

The player has wrongly substituted a ball. 27-1 being assigned , he has played from a wrong place with a probable SB.
The ball has been substituted for the PB. The OB is still in play
IMHO of course
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby JMC » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:29 pm

Thank you Doug. The place where the player dropped and played ball A 3 was about 3 meters shorter of the location of A 2. Could a SB still be involved?
Regards – JMC
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby Doug » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:32 pm

In neither case was the ball in the WH. In both cases he should have taken S&D from
where the relevant ball was played ie the teeing ground. Sounds like a SB to me.
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby dormie1360 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:08 pm

Hi JMC & Doug,

Having a little trouble following. With regards to II, when the player played a ball without KVC wouldn't the player be incorrectly substituting for the Provisional.......so S& D penalty plus 2PS for a WP under R13-1 unless a SB? (Dropped ball vs. Provisional) The moment the player dropped (incorrectly substituted a ball) the OB was lost and the Provisional became the Ball in Play. When he played the dropped ball the Provisional became lost.
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby Doug » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:13 am

I think that was what I was meaning.
In both cases the ball was substituted and played from a wrong place. In both cases the ball should have been dropped at the tee so a probable SB.
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby JMC » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:24 am

Hi John A. and Doug. Thank you for your reaction.
I must confess that after almost 30 years as a Referee I felt I knew the rules of golf – unfortunately, it is not the case! Possibly, I am not the only one!

Referring to my question II, I find Referees telling me the OB is lost, some other feel the OB is still in play, and other are of the opinion that a SB has occurred!!
What should I do now?
Well, I should ask an expert (I am sure such an expert exists on Don' site) to explain to me

- since, based on D 27-2a/4, the third ball bears a relationship only to the previous ball played, i.e. the provisional ball, why could the OB be lost?

- why should a SB have occurred when the third ball (dropped from the WH) is further from the hole than the location of the PB?

May be someone will find the words so that this senior shall eventually understand?!!

Anyhow, many thanks in advance – JMC
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby dormie1360 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:18 pm

My old brain has serious limits as well. :) This is how I thought it through.........not sure if any of this helps or confuses the issue more. :oops:

The provisional would be the ball in play if the OB were not found (without KVC).

In your case, the player assumed the OB was lost in the WH (R26) without KVC.

He therefore dropped under an inapplicable rule.

He should have played the Provisional under stroke and distance, applicable rule 27.

So he incorrectly substituted for the provisional dropping somewhere else. Assuming he knew the location of the Provisional he violated R13-1 by playing from a different place than where the provisional lay. Depending on whether or not he gained a significant advantage playing where the ball was dropped vs where the Provisional lay would determine whether or not there was a SB.

I would think if the player after dropping, found the OB within 5 minutes, he could apply R20-6 and continue with the OB.

I have the following example from the USGA school house that does seem to be saying something different with regards to this, unless I'm misinterpreting it.

After hitting his tee shot into the rough, Player H properly plays a provisional down the middle. In searching he finds a ball in a bad lie. He deems it unplayable and drops in under Rule 28b. He plays to the green and lifts his provisional ball that was 20 yard down the fairway. As he walks to the green he finds his original ball in the rough.

When H dropped the stray ball the original ball was lost and the provisional ball was the ball in play. Therefore, he substituted a ball in and play from a wrong place. He incurs a 2 stroke penalty under Rule 13-1 in addition to the stroke and distance penalty and he must continue with the substituted ball as the breach was not a serious one. He is not penalized an additional 2 strokes for teh substituting when not permitted.
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby JMC » Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:44 pm

Many thanks John for your very detailed reply. I understand and fully agree with your analysis presented.
Of course I also agree that "when the player after dropping, found the OB within 5 minutes, he could apply R20-6 and continue with the OB."
Unfortunately, in the case presented under II, the player has played the "dropped" ball and can no longer rectify, which is similar to the case presented at the USGA school.

I have taken note that the USGA consider that "When H dropped the stray ball the original ball was lost and the provisional ball was the ball in play."

I have some difficulties to understand that because the last sentence of D 27-2a/4 states that the third ball bears a relationship only to the provisional ball. So logically, I would have ruled that:
"When H dropped the stray ball the PROVISIONAL ball was lost and the original ball was still in play"!

Conclusion: YES, you have helped me and I am grateful for it. However, the USGA decision brings indeed some confusion!!

Again many thanks and best regards from Geneva – JMC
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby Doug » Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:58 pm

As the OB was not lost yet, it was still the ball in play. When he dropped another ball he substituted for the ball in play ie the OB.

I think.
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby dormie1360 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:08 pm

In your example I believe both the provisional (A2) and the dropped ball (A3) have a relationship with the OB.(A1) A2 was played as a provisional for A1, and A3 was dropped for A1 because of the belief that A1 was in the hazard. In D27-2a/4 the third ball was specifically being played for the 2nd provisional, the difference in the decision focuses on whether on not the 3rd ball would be treated as a provisional for the second ball or a mandatory ball in play under stroke and distance for the second ball. (not the first)

Frankly, I am having trouble with the way the USGA answered the question. When the ball was dropped it was now the ball in play for the OB, but I don't believe the OB is lost until the ball dropped ball is played. This is because the ball was dropped under an implacable rule and the player should be able to correct.
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby Chippings » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:00 pm

John
Your summary in your reply dated 16 sept at 2.18 was excellent .

Don't worry about the test papers error which is incorrect
It is not uncommon to find errors in test papers or even official replies from the ruling bodies when substituted balls are concerned.

I will just offer my further confirmation of a few points relating to scenario ii

1. The third ball (a3) when incorrectly dropped becomes the ball in play ( see r 20-4 ,second paragraph of rule15-2. , and wrong ball definition ) And it is a substituted bal for the provisional.(a2)
It bears no relationship to the original.
2. The provisional ball (a2) is lost when a stroke is made at the substituted ball (a3)( see definition of lost ball)
3. The original ball does not become lost until 5 minutes has elapsed or until a stroke is made at the provisional ( now ball a3) at the spot where the original ball is likely to be.
.4. Rule .20-6 could be used to correct the situation before a stroke was made at the incorrectly substituted ball.

Well done John clap
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby JMC » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:36 pm

Well done to you as well Chippings. Your explanation corresponds exactly to what I thought except you were able to express it more clearly! Thank you very much.

I would appreciate if you could plse also comment on following question:

In scenario II ball A 3 is dropped and played
- 3 meters further from the hole than the location of ball A 2 and
- about 10 meters further from the hole than the location of ball A 1

In this situation, could a serious breach have occurred when playing A 3?

I really would appreciate your opinion on this subject.
Thanks and regards – JMC
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby Chippings » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:24 pm

JMC wrote:
I would appreciate if you could plse also comment on following question:

In scenario II ball A 3 is dropped and played
- 3 meters further from the hole than the location of ball A 2 and
- about 10 meters further from the hole than the location of ball A 1

In this situation, could a serious breach have occurred when playing ball A3

I really would appreciate your opinion on this subject.
Thanks and regards – JMC





As john said in his excellent summary
" You compare the wrong place of ball A3 with the correct place of ball A2.to decide whether a significant advantage has been gained."
This decision is not confined to distance alone.
EG. The provisional A2 may be laying in a very difficult position which would entail a chip out or a lay up compared with the dropped ball which may provide an unhindered shot to the green.

3 metres in itself would suggest that there is no material advantage but in your orignal scenario and thereafter I do not see where you have exactly told us how the provisional ballS A2 or A3. were laying.

The comparable position of ball A3 and A1 is irrelevant .
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby JMC » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:50 pm

To Chippings, John and Doug
Thank you very much gentlemen for having reacted to my query. Now, I don't feel more intelligent but indeed more knowledgeable due to your input!
It was a good lesson to remember and I am wishing all of you a nice week-end – JMC
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby DW » Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:34 pm

Dear all

Can anybody convince me why the folllowing ruling is not correct:

Up to the moment where the pB came to rest after the player made his second stroke at it, we all agree, it is business as usual.

Further, I believe we all agree, that R26-1 is not applicable, as it states in parts: "It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward a water hazard is in the hazard. In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that a ball struck toward a water hazard, but not found, is in the hazard, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1."

In this situation, it was neither known nor virtually certain, that the ball ended up in the LWH. Hence, the player was not entitled to invoke R26-1 but was required to put a ball into play under R27-1. Actually, he already did so by having played the pB (A2). IMHO the dropped ball (A3) bears a relationship to the last ball the player played, i.e. the pB (A2). By dropping A3, the player proceeded again under R27-1, but since R27-1 requires a ball to be dropped as near as possible to the spot where the last stroke was made (hence where the player made his second stroke with A2), in a wrong place.

Now, let's start counting:
- Tee shot with A1: 1 stroke
- Strokes with A2 (pB): 2 strokes
- A1 rendered lost, pB (A2) becomes ball in play: 1 penalty stroke
- A3 dropped under R27-1, but in wrong place: 1 penalty stroke + 2 penalty strokes
- Approach & two putts: 3 strokes

As long as the Committee does not come to the conclusion that the player, by dropping and playing A3 from a wrong place, committed a serious breach of R27-1, the player's score for this hole is 10. Otherwise he ist DQ'd.

Best regards

Daniel
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby dormie1360 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:54 am

DW wrote:Dear all

Can anybody convince me why the folllowing ruling is not correct:

Up to the moment where the pB came to rest after the player made his second stroke at it, we all agree, it is business as usual.

Further, I believe we all agree, that R26-1 is not applicable, as it states in parts: "It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward a water hazard is in the hazard. In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that a ball struck toward a water hazard, but not found, is in the hazard, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1."

In this situation, it was neither known nor virtually certain, that the ball ended up in the LWH. Hence, the player was not entitled to invoke R26-1 but was required to put a ball into play under R27-1. Actually, he already did so by having played the pB (A2). IMHO the dropped ball (A3) bears a relationship to the last ball the player played, i.e. the pB (A2). ]By dropping A3, the player proceeded again under R27-1, but since R27-1 requires a ball to be dropped as near as possible to the spot where the last stroke was made (hence where the player made his second stroke with A2), in a wrong place.

Now, let's start counting:
- Tee shot with A1: 1 stroke
- Strokes with A2 (pB): 2 strokes
- A1 rendered lost, pB (A2) becomes ball in play: 1 penalty stroke
- A3 dropped under R27-1, but in wrong place: 1 penalty stroke + 2 penalty strokes
- Approach & two putts: 3 strokes

As long as the Committee does not come to the conclusion that the player, by dropping and playing A3 from a wrong place, committed a serious breach of R27-1, the player's score for this hole is 10. Otherwise he ist DQ'd.

Best regards

Daniel


Hi Daniel,

Referencing A3 and agreeing it bears a relationship to A2 (PB) why would you apply R27-1 as the applicable rule? Agreeing that he should have played the provisional, why would incorrectly substituting for the PB, at a place other from where the PB was played, result in R27-1, when the location of the PB was known?

Would you not agree when an incorrect substitution is made without knowledge of the location of the OB, R27-1 is the applicable rule. If the location of the OB is known, and an incorrect substitution is made, R13-1 is the applicable rule. See D18-2/8.5
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby dormie1360 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:39 am

So as not to confuse, my last paragraph above was speaking in general terms and not specific to the OP's question which we agree, deals with substituting for a PB.
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby JMC » Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:30 am

Dear Colleagues

In spite of the very good and logical explanation received recently, it would seem that I have been unable to convince some of my Swiss colleagues that, under the situation described in my question, the original ball is still the ball in play if found within the 5 minutes!

Does anyone knows whether the R&A has ever published anything that would confirm the summaries presented by John and Chippings?

Thanks in advance for your help and regards – JMC
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby Chippings » Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:54 pm

JMC.
Sorry for not replying earlier but I have been away refereeing.
In your first enquiry you stated that the third ball (a3) was dropped behind (26-1b).
No distances were stated (10 yds/100yds)??
Therefore the answer regarding whether the original ball was lost was specific to
A. 5 minutes search
B. Whether A3 was played from the spot where A 1 lay.
See lost ball definition a and b.
That is how john and myself answered your enquiry.

When in a later post you introduced some distances you were concerned with a serious breach question with regard to A3 versus A 2.and this question was addressed ,

So to complete your understanding.--
The original ball will be lost if 5 minutes has elapsed or if A 3 was played at the spot where the original A1 was likely to be.
If A 3 was played 10 yards behind the hazard under 26-1b it would be considered lost.
If A3 was played 50 yards behind the hazard under 26-1b it would not be considered lost because a stroke at the provisional ( now A3) has not been made at the spot where the original was likely to be.

I suspect that your colleagues may be aware of the distances which you never originally supplied.

Does this make it clearer

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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby JMC » Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:48 am

Thank you very much Chippings for taking the time to come back to my question.

A few points:
- Yes, at the beginning, I had not mentioned the question of distances.
- I did it later on this site and to my Swiss colleagues.
- I did it because it was no clear in my OP whether A3 was dropped and played at the spot where A1 was likely to be and also to eliminate the question of a SB.

So until now, I had perfectly understood the explications given in your and John' summaries and I was in agreement.

However today, your sentence:
"If A 3 was played 10 yards behind the hazard under 26-1b it would be considered lost."

brings some confusion in my mind. A1 is not lost if A3 is played 50 yds behind the hazard, why would it be lost when played 10 yds?

No doubt, I must be missing something. Thanks for your help and regards – JMC
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby Chippings » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:29 pm

Every situation is different and depends on the facts specific to the scenario.
In your scenario when a player has driven from the tee towards a water hazard - which I have assumed is some distance away - ( generally the case with a drive but not absolute ) then I have assumed that any search would include the hazard ,and areas not only short of the hazard but also beyond the hazard .
Consequently 10 yards is a small enough area to satisfy the expression
" where the original ball is likely to be"


In contrast a distance of over 50 yards is not likely to satisfy the expression.

As I have said before every scenario is different and the facts of each case must be established before a judgement is made and it is up to you to decide whether

" A3 was played at a point where the original was likely to be"

Such area must be estimated as the positions of the original may be numerous.

Do not place any special emphasis on 10 or 50 Yards used by me as these distances were chosen as I believed that these illustrated the difference .

The position where the original was subsequently found has no relevance .

Thank you
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby JMC » Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:50 pm

Thank you Chippings for your detailed explanation. I understand now what you meant and the case is clear for me. If I am successful in Switzerland, I shall let you know!
Thanks again and regards – JMC :P
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby Mr. Bean » Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:35 pm

I tried to read all of the posts with careful precision but still very confused.

As the player had no KVC for the original ball being lost in the WH yet he applied R26-1b, how can that NOT be a Serious Breach?
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby Chippings » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:23 pm

Mr Bean
In order to clear the mist for you please state clearly which scenario is confusing you and the explanation will be repeated.
Thank you
I
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby Mr. Bean » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:25 pm

Well, JMC wrote:

JMC wrote:
- why should a SB have occurred when the third ball (dropped from the WH) is further from the hole than the location of the PB?


Others have had an opposite opinion but afa I could find nobody answered JMC's question.
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby Chippings » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:54 pm

Mr Bean
The question regarding serious breach was asked by JMC again in a slightly different way and answered by Chippings in his message dated 17/09/2016 at 4.24pm
Does this reference help?
Regards
C
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby JMC » Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:53 am

Mr Bean – well you are not the only one thinking that a SB could have occurred and some of my friends believe that the player should go back to the tee to correct. However, if I understood correctly the very good explanation received, one should compare position of A3 versus A2 to decide whether a SB has occurred. JMC
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby RJM » Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:16 pm

If I read all this and interpret the Rules correctly, A3 is a substitute for A2. Under what Rule has A3 been substituted and where does that Rule say A3 is supposed to be played from? Then we can compare the actual spot to the "supposed to be" spot and determine if a SB has occurred. For example, if the Rule was S&D, then the "supposed to be" spot is the teeing ground and there most probably is a SB.
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Re: OB lost or not?

Postby Chippings » Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:12 pm

Rjm

By asking such an astute question I am sure that you know the answer!

Perhaps you should share it with us :lol:
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