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q22

Dedicated to discussion of the MGA Quiz. Please do not post general RoG questions here. Use the other sections. feel free to discuss.

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q22

Postby don » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:17 pm

q22

22) A competitor wishes to take relief from an immovable obstruction under Rule 24 so he lifts his ball in play. Believing that he must drop within two club-lengths of the nearest point of relief, he drops another ball more than one club-length from the nearest point of relief. When he addresses the ball, the ball moves. He plays the ball from the ball’s new location. The competitor has incurred how many penalty strokes?
a. Three
b. Four
c. Five
d. Six
23)
If you see a bomb disposal expert running, keep up with him!
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Re: q22

Postby edwjmcgrath » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:25 am

I appear to disagree on this question also. This is one of the tougher ones.
Here is my thinking:
The player should have dropped and played his ball within 1 CL of the NPR under 24.
When he drops the ball more than 1CL from the NPR, that becomes the ball in play.
But since he hasn't played it yet, there is no penalty yet under 20-7 (or any applicable rule). (He may still lift the ball under 20-6 with no penalty.)
When he moves the ball in play, there is a single PS under 18-2a for moving the ball in play but again, no penalty under 20-7.
When he plays the ball, he has played the ball from a WP with 2 PS under the applicable rule-24 (which says that he should have played the ball where it landed after dropping within 1CL) and 18-2a which says that he should have replaced the ball.
Since the player only plays from the WP a single time, he is only penalized under 20-7 once, even though improper actions under two different rules caused the ball to be in a wrong place.
Again, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Re: q22

Postby Johanna » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:14 am

I think a) is the correct answer, total 3 PS. 2 PS for an improper drop and one more PS when the ball moved after addressing it.
Even if he had corrected the improper drop, he'd still incur the 1 PS for moving the ball after addressing it. At least that's what Decision 20-2a/4 says.
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Re: q22

Postby Wendy » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:04 pm

All kinds of disagreement on this one! :)

I answered B. 4 penalty strokes.

2 penalty strokes for wrong place, but he gets the discount(no further penalties) for substituting.

2 more penalty strokes for a general breach of 18. He moved the ball and didn't replace.
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Re: q22

Postby Andrew » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:55 pm

I agree with you Wendy with the same reasoning
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Re: q22

Postby edwjmcgrath » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:22 am

Wendy, Andrew. See note 3 to 20-7. I read this as saying the player is penalized for playing from the wrong place but does not incur a penalty for the improper drop.
2PS for the WP and 1 PS for moving his ball in play. I love this question, as it gets you thinking about the relationship of playing from a wrong place and the error(s) that got your ball in the wrong place. No double jeopardy.
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Re: q22

Postby Mr. Bean » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:25 am

I'm for B, 4 penalty strokes.

The player substitutes a ball when not permitted (see Note 2 in R24-2), he cannot escape that even though he would not be penalized twice for playing from a wrong place. So, the player drops another ball in a wrong place. Now this ball is the ball in play. Next he moves his ball in play without returning it to it's original spot. That gives him 2 PS from 15-2 (or 24-2, whichever) and 2 more for playing from wrong place, R18 general penalty.
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Re: q22

Postby charleskine » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:42 am

In my opinion the answer is b). 4 strokes
The second breach (R 18-2) is unrelated to the first breach (R 24-2(i)) and the ball should have been replaced
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Re: q22

Postby edwjmcgrath » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:16 am

Charles (and others), where should the ball be played? Where the ball lie before it was moved? Or should the player redrop correctly under 20-6.
It seems that the player cannot avoid playing from a wrong place. Either one place is wrong or the other.
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Re: q22

Postby charleskine » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:59 am

hi edwjmcgrath
In my opinion before playing the ball, the player should lift the ball (R 20-6) and then proceed under R 24-2 dropping within one club length, although, since the ball was in play when placed albeit in the wrong place, the 1 stroke penalty under R 18-2 is applicable. see D 20-2a/4
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Re: q22

Postby edwjmcgrath » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:34 pm

20-2a/4 says that after an improper drop and a ball moved by player, the ball should be dropped correctly, but there is still 1PS for moving the ball.
This decision tells us that when there are conflicting requirements on the player-replace ball and redrop under 20-6, the redrop under 20-6 overrides the replace under 18-2.
If the player redrops properly, there is only 1PS. He is not penalized for failing to replace under 18-2. To me, it follows that if he does not redrop properly, he has played from a wrong place-for an additional 2PS.

I prefer to think of this in chronological order:
Improper substitution-no penalty strokes yet. He may correct under 20-6 or it may be erased if he is also penalized under 20-7.
Improper drop-no penalty strokes yet, but he is in jeopardy unless he corrects under 20-6. It may be erased if he is penalized under 20-7.
Ball moved by player-1PS under 18-2.
Ball played by player-2PS for playing from a wrong place. No additional penalty for improper substitution or improper drop per note 3 to 20-7.
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Re: q22

Postby marfo53 » Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:07 pm

I agree with Ed. The WP penalty kicks in at the time the ball is played, not before.
No avoiding the 1 PS for moving the ball, but for his other "careless" actions the player got a nice three-for-one package deal :'wrong substitution+wrong drop+not replacing' for only 2 PS. :wink:
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Re: q22

Postby Andrew » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:29 am

Ed & Johanna,

Looking at my notes in working on the quiz, I went for 4 penalty strokes, though for a slightly different reason than Wendy above.

Under the penalty statement for R18, the 2nd penalty stroke kicks in when the ball was not replaced. However, there was a substituted ball when the player was proceeding under R24-2, which doesn't allow substitution (except when the ball is not immediately recoverable). The rationale in my notes was 2PS R18-2b + 2PS R15-2 (app. rule 24-2).

However, like any reasonable person should, I see your argument's validity. It was a difficult question, and I am far from 100% certain that 4PS is the correct answer. I look forward to the learned quiz-setter's solutions and learning from their rationale.

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Re: q22

Postby RJM » Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:47 pm

edwjmcgrath wrote:20-2a/4 says that after an improper drop and a ball moved by player, the ball should be dropped correctly, but there is still 1PS for moving the ball.
This decision tells us that when there are conflicting requirements on the player-replace ball and redrop under 20-6, the redrop under 20-6 overrides the replace under 18-2.
If the player redrops properly, there is only 1PS. He is not penalized for failing to replace under 18-2. To me, it follows that if he does not redrop properly, he has played from a wrong place-for an additional 2PS.

I prefer to think of this in chronological order:
Improper substitution-no penalty strokes yet. He may correct under 20-6 or it may be erased if he is also penalized under 20-7.
Improper drop-no penalty strokes yet, but he is in jeopardy unless he corrects under 20-6. It may be erased if he is penalized under 20-7.
Ball moved by player-1PS under 18-2.
Ball played by player-2PS for playing from a wrong place. No additional penalty for improper substitution or improper drop per note 3 to 20-7.

Ed, let me try a different thought process to get you to 4 penalty strokes, which is the correct answer, IMHO. First, let's stick to the facts in the question and what the player did, not what he could have done to correct and potentially avoid penalties. This player has dropped a substituted ball in a wrong place and played it from that spot - that's clearly two penalty strokes for 20-7/24-2. The new penalty statement in 20-7 excuses him for the substitution. When the player addressed the ball, the ball moved. That's a clear breach of Rule 18-2b which requires him to replace the ball. Failure to replace the ball before it is played means he incurs the general penalty for Rule 18, a total of two stokes. Incurring the general penalty of Rule 18 in this way excuses him from what you consider a second breach of 20-7.
Total penalty: 2+2=4.
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Re: q22

Postby charleskine » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:29 pm

well said. It is exactly the way I would had reasoned my answer.
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Re: q22

Postby edwjmcgrath » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:14 am

RJM, by your logic, if the player was to lift and redrop the ball within 1 CL under 20-6, would he not still be subject to the general penalty for failing to replace the ball that he moved at address?
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Re: q22

Postby RJM » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:33 am

Now we're not discussing the facts in the question, which detail what the player did, but discussing "what if" the player did something different.

In answer to your question, no. If the player were to proceed under 20-6 (before playing his ball) in order to correct his mistake of dropping in the wrong place while proceeding under 24-2, he would still be subject to the one stroke penalty prescribed by Rule 18-2b. He is not required to replace the ball moved after address if he is proceeding under another Rule - see Decision 20-3a/3.
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Re: q22

Postby edwjmcgrath » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:54 am

RJM, I understand your logic and it is a train of thought that I went through before I arrived at my answer. I guess that this is a good question because we have a fairly even split between 3PS and 4PS. I look forward to seeing the answer.
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Re: q22

Postby RJM » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:52 am

I have learned not to bet against Wendy - she routinely scores 100%.
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Re: q22

Postby edwjmcgrath » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:31 pm

Finally a persuasive argument. ;-)
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Re: q22

Postby Wendy » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:36 pm

Thanks for the compliment, but there won't be 100% this time...a counting error has already knocked me down to at least one wrong.
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Re: q22

Postby edwjmcgrath » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:30 am

Ok, I admit that I was wrong on this one. I'm going to have to think about this some more.
I made 2 counting errors that I knew about weeks ago, this is the only one that I got completely wrong.
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Re: q22

Postby Andrew » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:10 am

Information on LS from Quincy. This question was forwarded to the R&A, and the answer received was that 3 penalty strokes is the correct penalty.

Well done to Johanna and edwjmcgrath. I haven't seen Ed post here in a while, but hope that he finds out. Has anyone told the MGA? :D

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