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Rule 4 penalty statements

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Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby 999Q » Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:24 pm

Please can anyone provide me with an explanation as to why there is a difference between this penalty statement for Rules 4-1 and 4-2;
Match play or stroke play - If a breach is discovered between the play of two holes, it is deemed to have been discovered during play of the next hole, and the penalty must be applied accordingly.

and this penalty statement for Rule 4-4a or b;
Match play or stroke play - If a breach is discovered between the play of two holes, it is deemed to have been discovered during play of the hole just completed, and the penalty for a breach of Rule 4-4a or b does not apply to the next hole.
Apologies if this has been discussed before.

Barry
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Re: Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby Chippings » Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:56 pm

The only reason I can suggest is that a non- complying club is viewed "much more seriously " than an excess legal club.
Consequently to ensure a greater penalty --breaches of R4-1, 4-2, 4-3c, have the potential of being more heavily penalised-( by extending discovery to the next hole)---- This view is re- inforced by the greater penalty of dis qualification for unknowing using a non complying club ,such penalty not extended to unknowingly using the excess club.( unknowingly meaning before the breach is discovered).

Similarly Decision 4-4a/1 reaffirms that adding an extra legal club between holes is not an offence in itself-- until a stroke is made -- but adding a non-complying club and carrying would be immediately penalised.

A possible explanation ?
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Re: Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby Mr. Bean » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:38 pm

999Q wrote:Please can anyone provide me with an explanation as to why there is a difference between this penalty statement for Rules 4-1 and 4-2;
Match play or stroke play - If a breach is discovered between the play of two holes, it is deemed to have been discovered during play of the next hole, and the penalty must be applied accordingly.

and this penalty statement for Rule 4-4a or b;
Match play or stroke play - If a breach is discovered between the play of two holes, it is deemed to have been discovered during play of the hole just completed, and the penalty for a breach of Rule 4-4a or b does not apply to the next hole.
Apologies if this has been discussed before.

Barry


This particular question was presented in the latest TARS in St. Andrews two weeks ago and the response was that this issue is being reviewed.

Personally I cannot understand the difference, as the penalty incurred should (IMO must) be in proportion to the seriousness of breach. According to this principle carrying and not using a non-conforming club is LESS of an infringement than carrying 15 or more clubs.

We will see if anything comes from this. So far we just have to deal with the Rules as they are written.
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Re: Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby Chippings » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:04 pm

[quote=" Mr Bean states
'Personally I cannot understand the difference, as the penalty incurred should (IMO must) be in proportion to the seriousness of breach. According to this principle carrying and not using a non-conforming club is LESS of an infringement than carrying 15 or more clubs.'

I don't necessarily disagree with you but there must be good reasons e.g
What about the advantage a player may gain by using a club that exceeds or falls shot of the permitted lenghth and thereby gains a potential advantage when measuring? - not possible with even excess legal clubs?
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Re: Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby Mr. Bean » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:14 pm

Chippings wrote:[quote=" Mr Bean states
'Personally I cannot understand the difference, as the penalty incurred should (IMO must) be in proportion to the seriousness of breach. According to this principle carrying and not using a non-conforming club is LESS of an infringement than carrying 15 or more clubs.'

I don't necessarily disagree with you but there must be good reasons e.g
What about the advantage a player may gain by using a club that exceeds or falls shot of the permitted lenghth and thereby gains a potential advantage when measuring? - not possible with even excess legal clubs?


Use for measuring is a good point, did not even think about that. I wonder if there is any statement from the RB's if measuring is considered to be use of a club? IMO it should be as you are supposed to use one of your (conforming?) clubs or reach the same outcome with a borrowed (conforming?) club.

I took a more practical approach. Should you carry more than 14 clubs you have more choice during that 1st hole thus giving you real benefit, while carrying and not using a non-conforming club does not give you any advantage at all.
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Re: Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby Chippings » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:19 pm

Are you sure ? I play better when I only carry 8 clubs. 4 wedges -- I wish I could hit one wedge properly! :D
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Re: Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby RJM » Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:26 pm

Mr. Bean wrote:
Chippings wrote:[quote=" Mr Bean states
'Personally I cannot understand the difference, as the penalty incurred should (IMO must) be in proportion to the seriousness of breach. According to this principle carrying and not using a non-conforming club is LESS of an infringement than carrying 15 or more clubs.'

I don't necessarily disagree with you but there must be good reasons e.g
What about the advantage a player may gain by using a club that exceeds or falls shot of the permitted lenghth and thereby gains a potential advantage when measuring? - not possible with even excess legal clubs?


Use for measuring is a good point, did not even think about that. I wonder if there is any statement from the RB's if measuring is considered to be use of a club? IMO it should be as you are supposed to use one of your (conforming?) clubs or reach the same outcome with a borrowed (conforming?) club.

I took a more practical approach. Should you carry more than 14 clubs you have more choice during that 1st hole thus giving you real benefit, while carrying and not using a non-conforming club does not give you any advantage at all.


Not directly on point, but illustrates a point - in stroke play, a player starts his round with 15 clubs, one of which is non-conforming. He discovers this on his way to the second tee box, after the first hole has been completed. How many penalty penalty strokes has he incurred?
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Re: Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby Mr. Bean » Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:37 pm

RJM wrote:Not directly on point, but illustrates a point - in stroke play, a player starts his round with 15 clubs, one of which is non-conforming. He discovers this on his way to the second tee box, after the first hole has been completed. How many penalty penalty strokes has he incurred?


Four.

What is the point?
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Re: Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby RJM » Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:45 pm

Mr. Bean wrote:
RJM wrote:Not directly on point, but illustrates a point - in stroke play, a player starts his round with 15 clubs, one of which is non-conforming. He discovers this on his way to the second tee box, after the first hole has been completed. How many penalty penalty strokes has he incurred?


Four.

What is the point?


That's not correct. The point is in the penalty statements.
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Re: Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby RJM » Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:52 pm

Not directly on point, but illustrates a point - in stroke play, a player starts his round with 15 clubs, one of which is non-conforming. He discovers this on his way to the second tee box, after the first hole has been completed. How many penalty penalty strokes has he incurred?
edit - failed to include one fact - he did not make a stroke with the non-conforming club.
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Re: Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby Mr. Bean » Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:42 pm

RJM wrote:
Mr. Bean wrote:
RJM wrote:Not directly on point, but illustrates a point - in stroke play, a player starts his round with 15 clubs, one of which is non-conforming. He discovers this on his way to the second tee box, after the first hole has been completed. How many penalty penalty strokes has he incurred?


Four.

What is the point?


That's not correct. The point is in the penalty statements.


Rule 4-1: 4 PS
Rule 4-4: 2 PS
D1-4/12, principle 2

Total of 4 PS.

What am I missing?
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Re: Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby Marek » Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:02 pm

Mr. Bean wrote:D1-4/12, principle 2

Dec 1-4/12, principle 2 - one act results in two rules breached.

Serious question: I'm curious, what act would that be, putting the clubs in the bag at the parking lot?

The breach being a prolongated act during the entire first hole, I'm not so sure principle two can be used?
Last edited by Marek on Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby Marek » Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:02 pm

double post, sorry.
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Re: Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby regole » Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:07 pm

Hi All

If it can be useful, we had already discussed time ago:

rule-4-the-clubs-t1841.html

Regards
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Re: Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby Mr. Bean » Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:25 pm

Marek wrote:
Mr. Bean wrote:D1-4/12, principle 2

Dec 1-4/12, principle 2 - one act results in two rules breached.

Serious question: I'm curious, what act would that be, putting the clubs in the bag at the parking lot?

The breach being a prolongated act during the entire first hole, I'm not so sure principle two can be used?


What is a prolonged act? It says on R4-4 that a player needs to declare the excess club out of play upon discovery. I believe the act sort of starts from that point, not earlier. Same with the non-conforming club. (EDIT: Poor choice of words. The act is sort of ongoing and not interrupted, thus the player cannot act upon it until he is aware of the breach. So IMO principle 2 is valid.)

I read the earlier thread on this issue and I still feel that the penalty of 6 strokes is way too harsh. It is not in proportion with the breach at all, no way.
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Re: Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby Marek » Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:57 pm

Mr. Bean wrote:What is a prolonged act? It says on R4-4 that a player needs to declare the excess club out of play upon discovery. I believe the act sort of starts from that point, not earlier. Same with the non-conforming club. (EDIT: Poor choice of words. The act is sort of ongoing and not interrupted, thus the player cannot act upon it until he is aware of the breach. So IMO principle 2 is valid.)

I read the earlier thread on this issue and I still feel that the penalty of 6 strokes is way too harsh. It is not in proportion with the breach at all, no way.

The breach is discovered at one point, yes, but the breach has actually taken place during the whole first hole. That's what I meant by "prolonged". In 1-4/12, the acts are not related if a stroke is made between the acts. But in this case several strokes were made during the actual breach, so it's difficult or even impossible to place this situation in the context of 1-4/12.

So IMO since I cannot say that there are two related acts in this case, no rebate is offered and the player have to take the full responsibility of the two breaches.

The fact that the punishment is very harsh is a entirely different discussion. :-)
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Re: Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby RJM » Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:43 am

The correct answer from the USGA is 6 strokes - two for a breach of Rule 4-4a and four for a breach of Rule 4-4a. It is incorrect for the Rules official to assume that the 15th club was the non-conforming club. The smart player would declare the non-conforming club out of play, but maybe not all players are that smart and it could result in DQ.
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Re: Rule 4 penalty statements

Postby RJM » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:43 am

RJM wrote:The correct answer from the USGA is 6 strokes - two for a breach of Rule 4-4a and four for a breach of Rule 4-4a. It is incorrect for the Rules official to assume that the 15th club was the non-conforming club. The smart player would declare the non-conforming club out of play, but maybe not all players are that smart and it could result in DQ.

edit (with apologies) - two for a breach of 4-4a and four for a breach of 4-1a.
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