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Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

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Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby regole » Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:53 pm

Hi All

I reproduce below a discussion that has been on the site LS and I am not convinced the ruling given by the USGA

A player’s ball is being deliberately stopped by a fellow competitor from going into a water hazard at the player’s request.

The matter has been submitted at USGA and the reply was that the Rule 1-2 would apply to both players if fellow-competitor acts on the request.
Now my question
Because in the Decision 20-2c/4 in a similar circumstance, ball stopped by FC on Authorised by the player, no mention penalties for the FC? What is it that I'm missing?
Thank you for your support
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby Doug » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:30 pm

Is it an oversight?
Alternatively, wouldn't ther FC come under 1-2?
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby regole » Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:20 pm

Hi Doug
sorry but I do not understand what do you mean, which oversight ?
Becouse in the decision only the player (if necessary) incurs a penalty and not the FC. Or it is implied?
Which is the difference between the two situations, that of the post in LS and D. 20-2c/4, about the penalty for FC?

Thanks again for your patience
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby Doug » Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:17 am

Although the last paragraph of the decision includes the FC, I thing the oversight is in not making it clear that anyone involved would also be liable to the penalty (if a penalty would actually mean anything).

If the "someone else authorized by the player" was simply a spectator, the penalty could not be applied to them of course.
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby regole » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:54 pm

Doug wrote:Although the last paragraph of the decision includes the FC, I thing the oversight is in not making it clear that anyone involved would also be liable to the penalty (if a penalty would actually mean anything).

If the "someone else authorized by the player" was simply a spectator, the penalty could not be applied to them of course.


Hi Doug

Thank you very much, now everything is clearer clap
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby regole » Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:10 pm

Hi All
Sorry if I return on the subject.
No convinced of the response from USGA, he considered both players guilty of breach rule 1-2, I proposed the same question to the R & A.
The answer was that in relation to the final paragraph of Decision 20-2c/4, as the fellow-competitor acted upon the direction of the player, only the competitor would incur a penalty under Rule 1-2.
Now to whom should we believe ??

Your opinions are welcome on this ruling opposed :?

Regards
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby Chippings » Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:32 pm

Regole --- Certainly not an easy subject to discuss by way of correspondence ,backwards and forwards, and therefore an explanation for the shortage of opinion on this subject
There are so many possible variables which need to be established before the true facts are known and even then you may be left with a decision based on equity.--- which means it may vary.

Was the same set of facts presented to each ruling body?
On Leith the scenario was represented with a wayward shot being deliberately stopped which was heading for water!
Here we reference a dropping situation( no water mentioned).dec 20-2c/4
How serious was the breach in each scenario.
What was the " true "role of the fellow competitor in each scenario (read decision 33-7/7) -Innocent or not.
Equally relevant in coming to your decision---From where did the player play his next stroke / and the extent of the fellow competitor's compliance with any such further breach re wrong place!

You see --- these are just a few of the facts you must first establish in this type of incident.

Unfortunately also, you DO NOT ALWAYS get the correct answer to your question from the ruling bodies. -- so do not be afraid to write again expressing any queries you may have!
We DO know that there were errors in the answer provided by Linda on her web- site ( the leith scenario)- but we do not know if it was her mis - understanding or an incorrect answer received.

Each situation is DIFFERENT , but At the end of the day , let the rules guide you and/ or your Committee?
(I) Ball intentionally influenced by fellow competitor rule1-2 ( with 33-7/7 particularly relevant. and the player's culpability/ or not --- should be ruled under R1-4 and/ or R 1-2.
(Ii) If the player intentionally influenced the movement of the ball R1-2.

Hope this helps a little!
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby regole » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:46 pm

Chippings wrote:Was the same set of facts presented to each ruling body?


The answer is, yes :!:

In the meantime thanks for your answer.
Is not my habit making comparisons with different situations. Since that did not convince me the answer USGA, I repeated the same situation a R&A.
This was my request:
""a player’s ball being deliberately stopped by a fellow competitor fefore going into a water hazard at the player’s request.
What is your opinion?"
"

As you can see is a copy-paste of the same question submitted in LS.

Regards
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby Wendy » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:20 am

To add to the confusion...today I spoke to my USGA instructor at a USGA Rules workshop and was told that ONlLY the fellow competitor who stopped the ball is penalized. I'm going with this answer for now because it confirms my initial opinion. :)
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby RJM » Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:06 am

Wendy wrote:To add to the confusion...today I spoke to my USGA instructor at a USGA Rules workshop and was told that ONlLY the fellow competitor who stopped the ball is penalized. I'm going with this answer for now because it confirms my initial opinion. :)


Thanks for the diligence! Is this their "Final Answer"?
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby Mr. Bean » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:32 am

Just finished reading this thread and I must agree with Chippings, there are aspects that could have affected in the ruling received by regole given by USGA.

- Did the FC know he would be acting against the Rules or did he assume it would be allowed to stop the player's ball? Does Rule 6-1 go that far to give reason to penalize the FC in one or in both cases?

- Did they agree to have the ball stopped or was the request presented ad hoc when the ball was moving?

But thinking this through it would seem logical that only the player is to be penalized as it is his ball in play that is in question and he is responsible for any breach made reg. his ball, equal to Rule 20-1, 1st chapter.
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby dormie1360 » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:00 pm

Got this from Lew Blakey's website.

An important part of Decision 20-2c/4 is the last paragraph. It tells us that if a player
authorizes another person to violate Rule 1-2, the player incurs a penalty for a violation
of Rule 1-2. If the other person were another player [or his caddie], the other person
would also incur a penalty under Rule 1-2.


It's on Page 53 if you'd like to read it.

http://throughthegreen.org/linked/conversation_about_the_rules_-_2016r1.pdf
Regards,
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby Doug » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:11 pm

I can't see it on page 53
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby dormie1360 » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:28 pm

Doug wrote:I can't see it on page 53


4th Paragraph from bottom.
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby Doug » Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:29 am

:)
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby Mr. Bean » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:25 pm

dormie1360 wrote:Got this from Lew Blakey's website.

An important part of Decision 20-2c/4 is the last paragraph. It tells us that if a player
authorizes another person to violate Rule 1-2, the player incurs a penalty for a violation
of Rule 1-2. If the other person were another player [or his caddie], the other person
would also incur a penalty under Rule 1-2.


It's on Page 53 if you'd like to read it.

http://throughthegreen.org/linked/conversation_about_the_rules_-_2016r1.pdf


Well, that last paragraph nor any other part of the Decision hints towards a penalty to anyone else than the player himself so the conclusion by Lew Blakey may be well questioned. Although I am not saying it is an incorrect conclusion I am saying that this conclusion is far from clear derived from the Decision in question.

BTW, is this file in question published with the approval of USGA, i.e. all the text has been checked and approved by USGA? If so, it is fabulous material. If not, then ....
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby dormie1360 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:09 pm

I'd feel comfortable with anything he writes. I do know the website gets updated regularly as rules change.

He stills teaches the national rules workshops.

Some background from the USGA's website:

http://www.usga.org/articles/2011/03/volunteer-spotlight-lew-blakey-2147496643.html
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby Mr. Bean » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:23 pm

dormie1360 wrote:I'd feel comfortable with anything he writes. I do know the website gets updated regularly as rules change.

He stills teaches the national rules workshops.

Some background from the USGA's website:

http://www.usga.org/articles/2011/03/volunteer-spotlight-lew-blakey-2147496643.html


Well, I see a lot of questions on various Q&A-sites answered by extremely knowledgeable people but unfortunately also those people make mistakes (as we all do). That is why I am very cautious to trust anything else than the RB's.
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby dormie1360 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:49 pm

Fair enough. I don't believe the USGA recognizes any websites other than there own, I know USGA employees are not allowed to have there own rules websites.

Having said that, given Lew's reputation, plus the fact his answer is the same as the answer originally received from a RB, I'm going with it. :)

Edit: In a workshop a couple of years ago, the USGA's director of Rules Education mentioned Lew's website and specifically the rules conversation PDF. I don't remember the context of the discussion, but I do remember him speaking favorably of the PDF.
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby RJM » Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:08 pm

Everything on Lew's site is reviewed by others prior to being posted. Obviously, "others" does not include the USGA organization, but I'm willing to bet that some of the people that review it are members of the USGA Rules Committee and perhaps even some USGA Rules staff (but they aren't permitted to "authorize" it.)
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby dormie1360 » Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:16 pm

Mr. Bean wrote:Well, I see a lot of questions on various Q&A-sites answered by extremely knowledgeable people but unfortunately also those people make mistakes (as we all do). That is why I am very cautious to trust anything else than the RB's.


Hey Mr. Bean,

This may ease some of your concerns.

I just noticed this on the " USGA/PGA Rules Workshop Fact Sheet" sent to me by the USGA.

Listed under "Study Materials":

• ThroughTheGreen.org, a website created by Rules workshop instructor Dr. Lew Blakey. It contains essays on a variety of Rules topics, study aids, Rules quizzes and more. It is available at http://www.throughthegreen.org/index.html.

So the USGA seems to be authorizing this site as a good place to go to in preparation for the school.
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Re: Ball deliberately stopped by FC on request

Postby Marek » Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:59 pm

dormie1360 wrote:I'd feel comfortable with anything he writes. I do know the website gets updated regularly as rules change.

He stills teaches the national rules workshops.

Some background from the USGA's website:

http://www.usga.org/articles/2011/03/volunteer-spotlight-lew-blakey-2147496643.html

Very interesting article, thanks!
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