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Handicap error

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Handicap error

Postby Divot » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:59 pm

Rule 6-2b: "...if the recorded handicap is higher than that to which he is entitled and this affects the number of strokes received, he is disqualified from the handicap competition..."
In four ball a player has on his score card a one stroke higher handicap than he should. On the one hole where the extra stroke would fall, the player picks up and his partner's score counts for the team. Therefore, the error in handicap did not, in actuality, affect the strokes received. Does this dodge the disqualification?
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Re: Handicap error

Postby Doug » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:12 pm

Is this stableford?
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Re: Handicap error

Postby Divot » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:22 pm

No. Sounds like bad news.
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Re: Handicap error

Postby dormie1360 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:28 pm

IMO no.

6-2b and 6-6d cover different issues IMO. See R31-7.

Edit: I should add the ruling could be different if the competition had closed.
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Re: Handicap error

Postby Doug » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:15 am

I'm sure I have seen an explanation of "and this affects the number of strokes received" which would let him off the hook. But I don't know where.
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Re: Handicap error

Postby dormie1360 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:23 pm

Another thing to consider. If I understand R6-2b correctly, in a net competition, there is a DQ penalty if a player returns a card without a handicap recorded on it. The player(s) would not have any scores incorrectly reduced that don't count, but are still DQ'd.
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Re: Handicap error

Postby dormie1360 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:48 pm

Of course as I think about this I wonder if any of my logic makes sense in that if there were no way to avoid a penalty why would there be any reference to scores that don't count
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Re: Handicap error

Postby Doug » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:22 pm

Exactly
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Re: Handicap error

Postby regole » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:40 pm

Divot wrote:Rule 6-2b: "...if the recorded handicap is higher than that to which he is entitled and this affects the number of strokes received, he is disqualified from the handicap competition..."
In four ball a player has on his score card a one stroke higher handicap than he should. On the one hole where the extra stroke would fall, the player picks up and his partner's score counts for the team. Therefore, the error in handicap did not, in actuality, affect the strokes received. Does this dodge the disqualification?
Divot


Hi Divot,

Since according to the rule 31-3 on the score card it has been reported as a score that counts the partner's score, my answer is yes .
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Re: Handicap error

Postby Colin L » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:15 pm

This is how I have understood it. It’s going to require a big revision in my thinking if I’m told it’s wrong!

“Strokes received” refers to the number of strokes that the player gets after any calculation occasioned by the format. If you declare too high a handicap in singles stroke play and match play that inevitably results in your receiving more strokes than you should because you are playing off full handicap. That is clearly a DQ in stroke play. In match play, I just don’t see you escaping a DQ if it so happens that on the hole you get that “extra” stroke you lose the hole anyway.

It is only when the calculation involves calculating a percentage of your handicap that you get a situation where you can end up receiving the same number of strokes from your wrong handicap as you would from your correct handicap. That to me is the only time you can escape a DQ - on the basis that the declaration of the wrong handicap has not affected the number of strokes received. Whatever the situation, it is fixed at the start - DQ or no DQ. What happens in the course of the game has no effect on that.

For example, come the 1st March under CONGU handicapping, if in 4BBB you declared your handicap to be 6 when it should have been 5 and receive 5 strokes (0.9 of 6 = 5.4), you are receiving the same as you would from 5 (0.9 of 5 = 4.5). In that situation your error does not affect the strokes received and you escape a DQ.

Do I need a flak jacket?
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Re: Handicap error

Postby Doug » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:23 pm

Colin
If you don't complete the hole how can you receive any strokes?
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Re: Handicap error

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:37 pm

dormie1360 wrote:IMO no.

6-2b and 6-6d cover different issues IMO. See R31-7.

Edit: I should add the ruling could be different if the competition had closed.


Iagree R 31-7 and both are for the chop, despite what R31-3 states.
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Re: Handicap error

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:49 pm

Colin,

For example, come the 1st March under CONGU handicapping, if in 4BBB you declared your handicap to be 6 when it should have been 5 and receive 5 strokes (0.9 of 6 = 5.4), you are receiving the same as you would from 5 (0.9 of 5 = 4.5). In that situation your error does not affect the strokes received and you escape a DQ.

I understand that the player is required to indicate on his card his correct handicap i.e. before applying the .9 calculation. In the case you mention he has not and in my opinion he should be dq. See D 6-2/1.
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Re: Handicap error

Postby Colin L » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:53 pm

Doug wrote:Colin
If you don't complete the hole how can you receive any strokes?


You have received the number of strokes for your round at the start. Whether you “use” one of them at a particular hole does not alter the fact that you received it in the first place. Even if you break it down to the particular hole, you “receive” your stroke at the start of the hole: whether you make good use of it is another matter.

What, by the way, is the difference between missing out on the advantage of a handicap stroke at a hole through three putting and through picking up?
Last edited by Colin L on Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Handicap error

Postby Colin L » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:08 am

Adrian Mackenzie wrote:Colin,

For example, come the 1st March under CONGU handicapping, if in 4BBB you declared your handicap to be 6 when it should have been 5 and receive 5 strokes (0.9 of 6 = 5.4), you are receiving the same as you would from 5 (0.9 of 5 = 4.5). In that situation your error does not affect the strokes received and you escape a DQ.

I understand that the player is required to indicate on his card his correct handicap i.e. before applying the .9 calculation. In the case you mention he has not and in my opinion he should be dq. See D 6-2/1.


D 6-2/1 describes a situation where the player’s error affects the number of strokes received and so the player would be disqualified. It remains the case that R6-2 includes the qualification that a player is not disqualified if in declaring too high a handicap he does not receive more strokes that he would have from his correct handicap. In my illustration, the player would have wrongly recorded 6 on his card but the Committee would not disqualify his side because the number of strokes received after the calculation is the same as for the correct handicap of 5.
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Re: Handicap error

Postby dormie1360 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:52 am

Colin L wrote:D 6-2/1 describes a situation where the player’s error affects the number of strokes received and so the player would be disqualified. It remains the case that R6-2 includes the qualification that a player is not disqualified if in declaring too high a handicap he does not receive more strokes that he would have from his correct handicap. In my illustration, the player would have wrongly recorded 6 on his card but the Committee would not disqualify his side because the number of strokes received after the calculation is the same as for the correct handicap of 5.


This is starting to grow on me. Reading D6-2b/3.5, they seem to be talking about strokes received based on the percentage of the Handicap written on the card.

"Therefore, the error in handicap did not, in actuality, affect the strokes received. Does this dodge the disqualification?
Divot"


I think the above got me on the wrong track because of the way the question was worded. Yes, the error did affect the strokes received (6-2b), it did not affect the score for the hole (6-6d).
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Re: Handicap error

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:24 am

Colin L wrote:
Adrian Mackenzie wrote:Colin,

For example, come the 1st March under CONGU handicapping, if in 4BBB you declared your handicap to be 6 when it should have been 5 and receive 5 strokes (0.9 of 6 = 5.4), you are receiving the same as you would from 5 (0.9 of 5 = 4.5). In that situation your error does not affect the strokes received and you escape a DQ.

I understand that the player is required to indicate on his card his correct handicap i.e. before applying the .9 calculation. In the case you mention he has not and in my opinion he should be dq. See D 6-2/1.


D 6-2/1 describes a situation where the player’s error affects the number of strokes received and so the player would be disqualified. It remains the case that R6-2 includes the qualification that a player is not disqualified if in declaring too high a handicap he does not receive more strokes that he would have from his correct handicap. In my illustration, the player would have wrongly recorded 6 on his card but the Committee would not disqualify his side because the number of strokes received after the calculation is the same as for the correct handicap of 5.


R6-2 b .... or if the recorded handicap is higher than that to which he is entitled and this affects the number of strokes received he is disqualified from the handicap competition. In this particular case it does not affect the number of strokes received, so you are correct and conversely I am wrong clap
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Re: Handicap error

Postby Colin L » Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:12 am

Doug wrote:Colin
If you don't complete the hole how can you receive any strokes?


A later and simpler thought on this. When you have a stroke at a particular hole and decide to pick up, is the decision based on knowing that your gross score is going to be too high to win or halve the hole and it’s up to your partner? Of course not. You will have calculated the best nett score and made your decision on that basis. You have factored in your handicap stroke.
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Re: Handicap error

Postby Doug » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:19 pm

But you only receive it if you complete the hole.
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Re: Handicap error

Postby Colin L » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:45 pm

Doug wrote:But you only receive it if you complete the hole.


At the moment, I obviously disagree with that by reckoning that you receive your allocation of strokes at the beginning of your round. You might also say that you receive the individual stroke at the beginning of the hole. I’m just not seeing, however, that how you use that stroke, if you use it at all, makes any difference.

Am I missing textual evidence in support of your view? I can’t honestly say I have any to support mine.
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Re: Handicap error

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:07 pm

Colin L wrote:
Doug wrote:But you only receive it if you complete the hole.


At the moment, I obviously disagree with that by reckoning that you receive your allocation of strokes at the beginning of your round. You might also say that you receive the individual stroke at the beginning of the hole. I’m just not seeing, however, that how you use that stroke, if you use it at all, makes any difference.

Am I missing textual evidence in support of your view? I can’t honestly say I have any to support mine.


Colin,

It is all about being allocated more strokes than you were entitled to if your correct handicap had been recorded and not about any hole. Your first explanation is the valid one and not your simplified version.
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