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Lifting without marking

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Lifting without marking

Postby MikeH » Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:44 am

In stroke play, a player lifts his ball to identify it without marking its position and now unable to determine where to replace drops the ball in accordance with R20-3c. 1 stroke penalty for breach of R12-2 [not marking] or general 2sp for breach of R12-2 as the ball was not replaced?

I appreciate it sounds a strange question however, both R12-2 and R20-1 imply the general penalty applies if the ball is not replaced but R20-3c adds if the spot cannot be determined then TTG drop a ball. Surely this must absolve the player from the GP for not replacing in either Rule or does it?

The question has come up on test paper and the answer given is general penalty of 2sp for a breach of R12-2.

Am I missing something? :?:
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Re: Lifting without marking

Postby Ron » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:01 am

Hi Mike,
My opinion for what it's worth.
If a player lifts his ball for identification purposes, permitted under R12-2, he KNOWS the lie of the ball being lifted by him and is required via R12-2 to a mandatory replacement of the lifted ball if it is indeed his ball.
Since the player knows the lie of the ball, R20-3c cannot and does not apply to the player's actions in the scenario you present. I refer you to the note attached to R20-3b.

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Re: Lifting without marking

Postby MikeH » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:41 am

Thanks Ron however I'm not convinced as the lie of the ball has not been altered it is simply the spot is not known
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Re: Lifting without marking

Postby MikeH » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:16 am

Dec 20-3a/3 supports my thinking
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Re: Lifting without marking

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:21 pm

See R 20-3 c. It states impossible to determine the spot etc..
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Re: Lifting without marking

Postby don » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:58 am

The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted under a Rule that requires it to be replaced. If it is not marked, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke and the ball must be replaced. If it is not replaced, the player incurs the general penalty for breach of this Rule but there is no additional penalty under Rule 20-1.

In the case you mention the ball is not replaced it is dropped.
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Re: Lifting without marking

Postby Doug » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:20 am

20-3c is a sub rule to 20-3 entitled Placing and Replacing. Which by implication, due to its positioning within the rule, includes dropping.
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Re: Lifting without marking

Postby MikeH » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:25 am

Ok so we agree 2sp as ball was dropped rather than replaced but this can still be corrected under R20-6 and reverts back to 1 sp for not marking?
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Re: Lifting without marking

Postby Ron » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:47 pm

Hi Mike,

Agreed. After all, that is the sole purpose of R20-6, provided, of course, the ball put into play, not in accordance with the Rules, is not played before correction.

Re my initial reply, while I am still of the same opinion R20-3c does not apply, my reference to R20-3b was not correct as pointed out by you for the reasons you stated. Thanks for pointing it out.

Re R20-3c, I do not see that as the all encompassing Rule preventing a general breach. That would be too wide an interpretation, IMO.
I took the view and still do, as the ball was lifted by the player himself, he knows the spot it was lifted from, thus is expected to replace the ball from where it was lifted from as required by R12-2 it was lifted under. Thus satisfying the mandatory requirement to replace the ball under the lifted Rule.

Regarding D20-3a/3, I, respectfully, do not see that as supporting your view in this particular instance.
There was no indication either verbally or by the player's actions to indicate he was proceeding under another Rule. In this this instance, therefore, IMO, I do not see R20-3c as "another" Rule as contemplated in D20-3a/3.

Happily, it appears there is some agreement here of a general breach applying. :D

Interesting question Mike. Thanks for raising it here.

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Re: Lifting without marking

Postby MikeH » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:21 am

Ron, the best reference to me that summed up the general penalty was in fact Dec 18-2/9. Although not directly related to the OP it clearly demonstrates the application of the general penalty not only for R18 but additionally under R12-2 and R20-1. As you rightly state, he knows the spot it was lifted from.

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