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MGA 2017 Q17

MGA 2017 Q17

Postby Doug » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:00 am

17. A player plays his shot and the ball bounces high in the air off a cart path towards the clubhouse. Unsure of whether the clubhouse is in bounds or not, he announces and plays a provisional ball which lands on the putting green, near the hole. When he goes to look for his original ball, an official tells him that the ball landed on the roof of the clubhouse, the clubhouse is in bounds and is considered an obstruction. He shows the player the spot where the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the obstruction and informs the player he is entitled to drop with no penalty taking relief under the obstruction Rule with his ball deemed to lie at the spot. The player, not liking where the drop would be, decides to play his provisional ball into the hole.

What is the ruling?
A) The player is disqualified unless he drops near the obstruction.
B) The player is penalized 2 strokes and may tee off on the next hole.
C) The player has a total penalty of 3 penalty strokes.
D) The player has proceeded properly incurring only the penalty stroke under 27-1
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Re: MGA 2017 Q17

Postby marcalex » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:51 pm

Hi,
I think the answer is D) The player has proceeded properly incurring only the penalty stroke under 27-1
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Re: MGA 2017 Q17

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:34 pm

A) R27-2c states that if the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the original ball. In this case it is known or virtually certain that the ball is in the immovable obstruction so the player has to proceed under R 24-3b.
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Re: MGA 2017 Q17

Postby Chippings » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:43 pm

Marcalex

Excellent answer D

P.s you have given some excellent answers to some of the other questions as well. clap
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Re: MGA 2017 Q17

Postby RJM » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:29 pm

Adrian Mackenzie wrote:A) R27-2c states that if the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the original ball. In this case it is known or virtually certain that the ball is in the immovable obstruction so the player has to proceed under R 24-3b.


Adrian, Rule 24-3b says if it is KVC that the player's ball is in the IO, he MAY proceed under this Rule. If he ELECTS to do so, then he MUST......
The word "may" suggests the player has other options, such as S&D, unplayable and ?
See Decision 27-2c/1.5
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Re: MGA 2017 Q17

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:16 pm

RJM,

The option of playing the provisional ball is not available for the reasons I gave.
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Re: MGA 2017 Q17

Postby marcalex » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:52 am

Adrian Mackenzie wrote:RJM,

The option of playing the provisional ball is not available for the reasons I gave.


Hi Adrian,
But the ball is deemed lost in the IO by the referee himself (He shows the player the spot where the ball last crossed the outermost limits)...
So I think that the PB is in play execpt if the player chooses to use the provisions of rule 24-3 : see rule 27-2b and its exception

If the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, the
provisional ball becomes the ball in play, under penalty of stroke and
distance (Rule 27-1).
Exception: If it is known or virtually certain that the original
ball, that has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency
(Rule 18-1), or is in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground
condition (Rule 25-1c), the player may proceed under the applicable
Rule.
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Re: MGA 2017 Q17

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:45 pm

Marcelex,

The exception means that that the player may proceed under the ball being moved by an outside agency, lost in an obstruction or lost in GUR, whichever is applicable. It does not in my opinion mean that the player can opt to play the provisional ball.
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Re: MGA 2017 Q17

Postby Chippings » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:59 pm

Adrian - did you read 27-2c/1.5 which was quoted by RJM.?
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Re: MGA 2017 Q17

Postby Imp » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:51 pm

Definition of Lost has this:

"The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b);"

A player can declare their ball lost at any time, and the player made a stroke at their provisional ball closer to the hole. I'm agreeing with "D" in this one. If the player didn't put a provisional in play, then the player would then take the drop at the decided location.

--kC
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Re: MGA 2017 Q17

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:48 pm

Chippings/RJM,

My mistake and stupidly overlooked the D 27-2c/1.5 especially after it had been pointed out.
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Re: MGA 2017 Q17

Postby Doug » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:12 pm

Imp wrote:Definition of Lost has this:

A player can declare their ball lost at any time,

--kC


That is not correct.

It becomes lost only if one of the situations in the definition is true.

Definition - Lost Ball

A ball is deemed "lost" if:

a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or

b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b); or

c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance under Rule 26-1a, 27-1 or 28a; or

d. The player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1b or c); or

e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.
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Re: MGA 2017 Q17

Postby Imp » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:05 pm

Doug wrote:
Imp wrote:Definition of Lost has this:

A player can declare their ball lost at any time,

--kC


That is not correct.

It becomes lost only if one of the situations in the definition is true.

Definition - Lost Ball

A ball is deemed "lost" if:

a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or

b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b); or

c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance under Rule 26-1a, 27-1 or 28a; or

d. The player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1b or c); or

e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

By a player continuing to play the hole and not look for the ball by instead playing their provisional, or putting another ball in play, the player has declared the ball lost. There is no requirement in the rules that a player *must* look for their ball. Hence, a player can declare a ball lost at any time (obviously one that's not sitting in plain view, like in the middle of the fairway can't be declared lost).

--kC
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Re: MGA 2017 Q17

Postby marcalex » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:35 pm

Imp wrote:By a player continuing to play the hole and not look for the ball by instead playing their provisional, or putting another ball in play, the player has declared the ball lost. There is no requirement in the rules that a player *must* look for their ball. Hence, a player can declare a ball lost at any time (obviously one that's not sitting in plain view, like in the middle of the fairway can't be declared lost).

--kC


Hi Imp,

IMHO, a player cannot declare his ball lost :

First because there is a clear definition in the rules book. A ball lost is a question of fact, not a question of declaration from the player.

Then, see D27-2c/2. If the player declares his ball lost just before someone find it, it has no effect, because the fact is that according to the definition, the ball is not lost.

Now, what you describe is not "a player declaring his ball lost", it's "a player who do not want to search his ball", or "A player whose ball is not yet found and not yet lost". The ball of that player will be lost if a fact listed in the definition of "ball lost" happen.

My opinion.
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Re: MGA 2017 Q17

Postby marcalex » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:28 pm

Hi all
See also 27/16
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Re: MGA 2017 Q17

Postby Doug » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:24 pm

D R27-1 Exception
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