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Identifying an opponent's ball

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Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby 999Q » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:42 pm

In singles match play, A and B's balls are lying close together. A bends down and rotates the ball that is slightly farther from the hole to identify whether it is his. It is not and so it is B's turn to play. What is the ruling and why?
a) No penalty is incurred, Rule 18-3a.
b) A is penalised one stroke under Rule 12-2.
c) A is penalised one stroke under Rule 18-3b.
d) A loses the hole under Rule 12-2.

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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby RJM » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:19 pm

a) 18-3a is not applicable as they were not searching.
b) 12-2 applies if it's the player's ball
c) right answer
d) neither 12-2 nor 18-3b is a loss of hole penalty - one stroke only
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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby Chippings » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:32 am

Just to provide some extra support I agree that C is the correct answer as provided by RJM.

The reason - for touching a ball other than provided in the rules.(Dec 12-2/2 wording)

Interestingly if the ball belonged to the player- decision 12-2/2 states that the rule that is breached is 18-2 and not 12-2"

Your question on this matter would appear to be an off shoot from an earlier similar thread that you raised last year?

If no referee was present ,and you were player B , you could ignore the breach in the same way as you graciously suggested before.
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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby MikeH » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:58 pm

Barry was there a claim? no claim no penalty...or did I miss something?
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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby 999Q » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:23 pm

Apologies for going missing on this post. By mistake, I posted the original in the wrong forum and I had not realised that the correction had been made (thanks Don).

The question arose from a similar scenario in one of my 'Rhodes Rules School' issues. I had correctly referenced Rule 18-3b for a penalty of one stroke in my answer, but was challenged by a subscriber who claimed, "as there is a breach of 12-2 and it's match play, is the penalty not loss of hole?" I was looking for confirmation that I was correct and threw in the other 'possibles' to provide a little more brain exercise. For example, on a less expert forum someone might suggest that the player was 'searching' for their ball when they touched their opponent's ball to see if it was theirs.

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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:32 pm

Barry,

The general penalty of loss of hole could only relate to the player's ball, not to the opponent's ball.
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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby marcalex » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:21 am

Adrian Mackenzie wrote:Barry,

The general penalty of loss of hole could only relate to the player's ball, not to the opponent's ball.


Hi all,

It's also my feeling.
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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby Q8 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:48 pm

I gather that if the player had marked the ball there would not have been a breach (unless the ball would be cleaned by turning)?
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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby 999Q » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:53 pm

Q8, not quite! In order to avoid a penalty A would have had to follow the strict procedure set out in Rule 12-2 for identifying a ball, which includes announcing his intention to his opponent.

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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby Q8 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:59 pm

999Q wrote:Q8, not quite! In order to avoid a penalty A would have had to follow the strict procedure set out in Rule 12-2 for identifying a ball, which includes announcing his intention to his opponent.

Barry


Sorry, by marking I meant going through the whole procedure.
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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:09 pm

Barry,

Q8, not quite! In order to avoid a penalty A would have had to follow the strict procedure set out in Rule 12-2 for identifying a ball, which includes announcing his intention to his opponent.

The fourth paragraph of R 12-2 states..... If the ball is the player´s ball and he fails to comply with all or any part of the procedure etc. As it was not his ball and he was entitled to lift the ball to identify it, there is no penalty in my opinion.
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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby RJM » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:34 pm

Adrian, which one of the four choices in the original post is your answer?
The only choice with no penalty is "a", so you're saying the player was searching for his opponent's ball (Rule 18-3a)? I can't buy that he was searching.
Remember, it is match play, and there is a penalty for purposely touching an opponent's ball in match play (Rule 18-3b).
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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby dormie1360 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:05 pm

999Q wrote:Apologies for going missing on this post. By mistake, I posted the original in the wrong forum and I had not realised that the correction had been made (thanks Don).

The question arose from a similar scenario in one of my 'Rhodes Rules School' issues. I had correctly referenced Rule 18-3b for a penalty of one stroke in my answer, but was challenged by a subscriber who claimed, "as there is a breach of 12-2 and it's match play, is the penalty not loss of hole?" I was looking for confirmation that I was correct and threw in the other 'possibles' to provide a little more brain exercise. For example, on a less expert forum someone might suggest that the player was 'searching' for their ball when they touched their opponent's ball to see if it was theirs.

Barry
Adrian Mackenzie wrote:Barry,

The general penalty of loss of hole could only relate to the player's ball, not to the opponent's ball.


The general penalty (loss of hole) under R12-2, is for a ball not replaced or a ball that is not recovered with LI's when required to do so. Doesn't sound to me like the situation described requires either.
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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby 999Q » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:35 pm

Time for a recap. I think that we are all agreed that c) is the correct answer to the original question. Q8 then changed the question, suggesting that there would not have been any penalty if A had marked the ball before rotating it to discover that it was not his ball. I answered that in order to avoid a penalty in match play A would have to follow the procedure in Rule 12-2. If he failed to follow this procedure and it was his ball he incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 12-2; and if it was his opponent's ball he incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-3b; if it was neither A or B's ball, no penalty was incuurred.

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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby Doug » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:43 pm

999Q wrote:In singles match play, A and B's balls are lying close together. A bends down and rotates the ball that is slightly farther from the hole to identify whether it is his. It is not and so it is B's turn to play. What is the ruling and why?
a) No penalty is incurred, Rule 18-3a.
b) A is penalised one stroke under Rule 12-2.
c) A is penalised one stroke under Rule 18-3b.
d) A loses the hole under Rule 12-2.

Barry

12-2 uses the word 'lifts' - he didn't
18-3b uses the word 'moves' - he did
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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby 999Q » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:20 pm

Doug,

Not for the first time I am having trouble in understanding one of your cryptic replies!

I presume that you are making the point that if A marked the ball and rotated it, without lifting it and without notifying his opponent; and identified that it was his ball he would have incurred the penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2(i), [not 18-3b as in your post!] and not Rule 12-2, as I suggested, because he moved it, but did not lift it.

OK!

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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:47 pm

I replied earlier before Barry
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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:55 pm

I replied earlier before Barry but it seems to have gone astray.

12-2 uses the word 'lifts' - he didn't
18-3b uses the word 'moves' - he did
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R 18-3 b ...... touches it purposely or causes it to move, except as otherwise provided in the Rules.......

R 12-2 My understanding of R 12-2 is to permit the player to move his ball in order to identify it. This may mean he lifts , rotates it or rolls it to one side. I do not believe that it means that the ball can only be lifted, so I am still of the opinion that as it was not the player's ball , he was not in breach of moving his ball.
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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby Doug » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:45 pm

Adrian

Oops. I missed 12-2/2

18-3b it is.
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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:25 pm

Barry,

What is your opinion now in view of subsequent posts?
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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby 999Q » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:13 pm

Adrian,

The answer to my original question was c) A is penalised one stroke under Rule 18-3b.

I stand by my answer dated 20th March to the slightly revised question;
If he failed to follow this procedure and it was his ball he incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 12-2; and if it was his opponent's ball he incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-3b; if it was neither A or B's ball, no penalty was incurred.
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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:38 pm

Barry,

R 18-3b states that if an opponent moves the ball of a fellow competitor, touches it purposely or causes it to move, except as otherwise provided in the rules, the opponent incurs a penalty of one stroke.
Under R 12-2 if a player is unable to identify his ball he is entitled to lift the ball. Although it states lifting, I am of the opinion that he is entitled to move the ball i.e. it covers lifting, rotating and rolling and is not restricted to lifting.
If the player does not follow all or part of the procedure to be carried out under R 12-2, he incurs a penalty of one stroke if the ball is his. As it was not then in my opinion there is no penalty.

Adrian
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Re: Identifying an opponent's ball

Postby Thom » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:33 am

R 18-3b states that if an opponent moves the ball of a fellow competitor, touches it purposely or causes it to move, except as otherwise provided in the rules, the opponent incurs a penalty of one stroke.
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You highlight above 'except as otherwise provided in the rules'. However in the question the behavior of the opponent is not consistent with the permission provided in R12-2 because he failed to mark the ball. Consequently, he has no protection and R18-3 applies (1SP) to his action of rotating his opponents ball (even though, in this case, he has not 'moved' the opponent's ball within the definition of 'moved'). Similarly, if he had marked and lifted but failed to announce etc, a breach of R18-3 still applies.
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