Golf Rules Discussion

Can anyone tell me what is the correct ruling for this event involving a potential lost ball and bringing a provisional ball into play, as this very scenerio happepened during a medal round at ny club.

A player tees off and plays a poor shot 100 yards from the tee into deep rough. As the rules permit, a provisional ball is then played, which lands 250 yards down the centre of the fairway.

The question is a what point can the provisional ball be declared the ball in play, as it is clearly advanatagous to the player not to find his first ball and declare it lost?

Can he declare the first ball lost immediatley after playing seeing his provisional ball land in a safe position (which I believe the rules do not permit), or if he must look for his first ball, what length of time is considered to be reasonable within the alloted 5 minute period, before declaring it lost and playing the provisional ball, which after all is the safer option than actually finding his ball unplayable and having to return back to the tee and risk misshitting his 3rd shot into the rough again.

I recall seeing Phil Mickleson in an identical situation during a PGA competition, and whilst he made an effort to look for his first ball, he wasn't best pleased when it was found just within the 5 minute period (by a spectator) in an unplayable lie and he had to return to the tee and disregard his provisional ball, as the original ball been found!

Whilst I am not supporting cheating in any way, the rules are not clear on what constitutes a reasonable period trying to find a lost ball, when clearly it is not in your interest to do so! CHIPNPUT

The player is not obliged to spend any time at all looking for the original ball. As soon as he has played another stroke at the provisional ball it (the provisional ball) becomes the ball in play and the original ball is lost. If someone else finds a ball that could be the player's original ball, and this ball is found before the player plays a stroke at the the provisional ball, then the player is bound to check whether or not the found ball is his.

chipnput wrote:Can he declare the first ball lost immediatley after playing seeing his provisional ball land in a safe position (which I believe the rules do not permit), or if he must look for his first ball, what length of time is considered to be reasonable within the alloted 5 minute period, before declaring it lost and playing the provisional ball, which after all is the safer option than actually finding his ball unplayable and having to return back to the tee and risk misshitting his 3rd shot into the rough again.

You can not declare a ball lost. It becomes (ie deemed) lost if one of the conditions in the definition are met.

Lost Ball
A ball is deemed "lost" if:
a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or
b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b);
or
c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 27-1a);
or
d. The player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1);
or
e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

Continued below:

DC has omitted one significant point.

The provisional ball has to be played at or beyond the point where the original ball is presumed to have been lost before it becomes the ball in play.

True Doug but the distances were in the question. I was duped I tells ya.

A player tees off and plays a poor shot 100 yards from the tee into deep rough. As the rules permit, a provisional ball is then played, which lands 250 yards down the centre of the fairway.

This is an example where "Think before you speak" might be good advice. The player has the right to declare that the ball he is going to play is provisional. He doesn't have to. But when he does, he is effectively declaring that he is still interested in playing the original ball if the Rules permit.

Thanks - so it seems that by playing a provisonal ball, which is in a much better position (be it nearer or further along the fairway to the tee) than where the original ball might be lying in the rough, is a better option than actually looking for the original ball. I wonder why Phil Mickleson didn't choose this option, as it was clearly in his interest to do so at the time

Chipnput.

Paul wrote:The player has the right to declare that the ball he is going to play is provisional. He doesn't have to. But when he does, he is effectively declaring that he is still interested in playing the original ball if the Rules permit.

I a player declares to play a provisional ball, he declares nothing else.

He is free, to search for his original ball, but doesn't have to.
His OB is deemed lost, if
a) the OB isn't foundt within the 5-minute search period, or
b) he makes a stroke at his provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that.

No ball ist lost (or abandoned) by declaration.

Before a) or b) occurs, a fellow competitor or an opponent may search for the ball and if it ist found, it remains the ball in play and has to be played. The PB is then a wrong ball.

Have a look at Decision 27-2b/1:
Continuation of Play with Provisional Ball Without Searching for Original Ball

Q. At a par-3 hole, a player hits his tee shot into dense woods. He then hits a provisional ball which comes to rest near the hole. In view of the position of the provisional ball, the player does not wish to find his original ball. He does not search for it and walks directly towards his provisional ball to continue play with it. His opponent (or fellow-competitor) believes it would be beneficial to him if the original ball were found. May the opponent (or fellow-competitor) search for the player's ball?

A. Yes. In equity (Rule 1-4), he may search for five minutes provided that in the meantime the player does not play a stroke with the provisional ball, it being nearer the hole than the place where the original ball is likely to be. The player is entitled to play such a stroke. If he does, the original ball is then lost under Rule 27-2b and further search for it would serve no purpose. In match play, if the player so proceeds and his provisional ball is closer to the hole than his opponent's ball, his opponent may recall the stroke (Rule 10-1c). However, recalling the stroke would not change the status of the original ball, which was lost when the provisional ball was played out of turn.

McFade

Hi McFade,

Why do you think that, in equity, the opponent or fellow-competitor may search for the player's ball?

Paul

"Thanks - so it seems that by playing a provisonal ball, which is in a much better position (be it nearer or further along the fairway to the tee) than where the original ball might be lying in the rough, is a better option than actually looking for the original ball. I wonder why Phil Mickleson didn't choose this option, as it was clearly in his interest to do so at the time."

While Mickelson had the right to proceed and make a stroke at his provisional, he did not do so because it was not his turn to play - his fellow-competitor was actually away. The Rules for stroke play would not penalize Phil if he did play out of order, but Phil chose not to do so. It is a game played by gentlemen.

I thought a spectator called and informed Mickelson where his original ball was before he was anywhere near his provisional. Mickelson was obliged to identify it and play it.

Hi Paul,

the idea, that the player may in equity R- 1-4 search a ball, which another player doesn't want to find or play, is not mine.
R&A and USGA have published this decision without further comments.

As far as the opponent is concerned, I can unterstand his intention to find his opponents ball in a poor position, which might create mor problems than the PB and the two additional strokes.

If I was not an opponent, but fellow competitor in stroke play, I would respect the players wish and wouldn't search for the OB.

McFade

Hello again, McFade.

The mention of equity in the decision you cited is for the purpose of establishing that an opponent or fellow competitor who searches for a player's original ball after that player has played a provisional and seems to want to continue with it will not be penalised for delaying play.

Why? Because in calling the second ball "provisional" the player is effectively saying, "If the first ball is OK, I want to play on with it." And then the opponent/fellow competitor has the right to help the player fulfil that wish.

The player may change his mind after seeing where the provisional ball comes to rest, and etiquette may then determine whether any searching is done.

You say, "If I was not an opponent, but fellow competitor in stroke play, I would respect the players wish and wouldn't search for the OB." I respect that, but I sometimes wonder whether things might be different if the last two players were going toe-to-toe on a playoff hole. The Rules leave it open!

Cheers,
Paul

Paul

Where did you get that explanation of the words 'in equity' in this situation ?

Doug,

Deduction.

Paul

Doug wrote:Paul

Where did you get that explanation of the words 'in equity' in this situation ?

Doug, "in equity" is used in the answer to dec27-2b/1.
Don

Don,

Touche,

Paul

Don

I have always understood that in the RoG, equity means treating a situation for which there isn't a rule, in a similar manner to where there is a similar situation covered by a rule.
In this case, I can't see what the similar situation is.

Doug, I see it this way, there is no rule that says that an opponent or fellow competitor is allowed 5 mins to search for a ball. That being the case "equity" (with regard to the player having 5mins) has to be used.
What do you think?
Don

That'll do it. Thanks

RJM wrote:"Thanks - so it seems that by playing a provisonal ball, which is in a much better position (be it nearer or further along the fairway to the tee) than where the original ball might be lying in the rough, is a better option than actually looking for the original ball. I wonder why Phil Mickleson didn't choose this option, as it was clearly in his interest to do so at the time."

While Mickelson had the right to proceed and make a stroke at his provisional, he did not do so because it was not his turn to play - his fellow-competitor was actually away. The Rules for stroke play would not penalize Phil if he did play out of order, but Phil chose not to do so. It is a game played by gentlemen.

RJM - My recollection of the event, was that it was stroke play comp and whilst Phil is a 'gentleman' and honest golfer, he is also a professional golfer. How many times have we seen professional golfers use the rules to their advantage to overcome difficult situations where other mere club golfers would accept the situation like a 'gentleman' and get on with it. An example of this was Tiger Woods finding himself behind a huge boulder on a desert course. The boulder was declared to be a 'loose impediment' by the rules official and with the help of numerous specators, Tiger managed to move the boulder out of the line of play. Is that gentleman conduct or is it utlising the rules to assist you to your best advantage? It seems to me that rules could be clearer on this particular point I have raised. Perhaps we should not be able to play a provional ball at all, then there would be no doubt about the rule at all!
Chipnput

Gentlemen, whether mere club golfers or professionals, play according to the rules.

The RO did not declare anything. The decision re large LIs had been in the book for decades.

I suggest you read the first sentence of 27-2a.

hi there, I am a little confused with one or two of the points raised re this query first mentioned by chipnput. Paul says that a player does not have to declare his intentions of playing a PB before doing so.I was always told that under Rule 27-2 he must do so, otherwise he is playing under penalty of one shot (ie 3 off the tee). Secondly, its also mentioned (don) that there is no rule stipulating 5 minutes to search for a ball but Rule27-1(c)appears to state this. If there wasnt such a rule, then such a search could go on and on.I would be gratefule for any enlightenment

David

Paul wrote:This is an example where "Think before you speak" might be good advice. The player has the right to declare that the ball he is going to play is provisional. He doesn't have to. But when he does, he is effectively declaring that he is still interested in playing the original ball if the Rules permit.

What Paul means is simply that the player may choose not to announce a second ball from the tee as a provisional ball if he is sure that he will not want to play his original ball even if he finds it. The second ball played from the tee without any words uttered becomes the ball in play.

don wrote:Doug, I see it this way, there is no rule that says that an opponent or fellow competitor is allowed 5 mins to search for a ball. That being the case "equity" (with regard to the player having 5mins) has to be used.
What do you think?
Don

Let me reword the above a little without changing what Don means.

There is no rule that says that a player is allowed 5 mins to search for an opponent's or a fellow competitor's ball.

Do these explanations clear things up for you?

Welcome to the forum.

DC

Thanks for these replies. I can now see what Paul meant having re-read his post and Rule 27-1. (However in practice I will continually ask my opp/fellow comp what his intentions are before he plays his next shot in order to avoid any misunderstandings that could (and do!) occur) On the second point, thanks for replying on Don's behalf although I did fully understand what he was saying. ( ie there is no rule, covered by equity only) I have to say, however, I still cannot understand why the 5 minute period is mentioned under Rule 27 and furthermore, why, if it isnt a rule, after 5 minutes of searching unsuccessfully, a ball is declared lost!! What if, for example, having searched for 5minutes, one player says to the other (the loser of the ball) "Sorry mate, youve had your five minutes, you will have to play another ball" At that moment, the ball is found. What is stopping that player (loser) then saying "There is no specific rule to say I have to take 5 minutes only, this is covered by equity only as a guidline, I am therefore playing my original ball"

David

To be honest I'm not sure where the confusion is here.

If a player searches for his ball and it is not found in 5 minutes then the ball is lost by definition.

If a player choses not to search for his ball but his opponent wants to search then what Don has suggested is that in equity, the opponent has the same 5 minutes that the player would have had. This is treating like with like. There is no decision or rule that allows what Don has suggested but I think that it is reasonable. In the scenario you describe, if the player plays his ball that has been found after the opponent has searched for 5 minutes then theplayer has played a wrong ball, in my opinion. It would then be up to the opponent to make a claim and the committee would decide. If I were on the committee I would award the hole to the opponent.

david wrote: I still cannot understand why the 5 minute period is mentioned under Rule 27 and furthermore, why, if it isnt a rule, after 5 minutes of searching unsuccessfully, a ball is declared lost!!

It is a rule. The definition (definitions are part of the Rules of Golf) of 'Lost Ball' says the ball is deemed (not declared) lost if it is not found within 5 minutes of strarting to search.

What if, for example, having searched for 5minutes, one player says to the other (the loser of the ball) "Sorry mate, youve had your five minutes, you will have to play another ball" At that moment, the ball is found.

By definition (ie under the rules) it is now lost

What is stopping that player (loser) then saying "There is no specific rule to say I have to take 5 minutes only, this is covered by equity only as a guidline, I am therefore playing my original ball"

He can say what he likes. The ball is lost. The definition (rule) says so.

now crystal clear,slight misunderstanding on my part, thanks for your patience and replies!