Golf Rules Discussion

Good Morning,
What is the meaning of above in the Definitions for Bunker – Ground under Repair – Water Hazards?
Thank you
Max

Hi Max,

The rules for boundaries and margins envisage vertical planes below and, sometimes, above a defined line,

I think the meaning is,
(1) that bunkers and GUR include all the earth directly below them, but not the air above them, whereas
(2) water hazards include both.
(3) Bunkers do not include grass and trees (except for the roots) growing within them, but
(4) GUR does whether the grass/trees overhang the margin above ground (i.e. except for the roots) or not, and
(5) water hazards include only the parts of the grass/trees that are within the vertical plane above the margin, though the player's club may touch such grass/tree during a practice-swing.

Does that help?

Whether the ground below ends at a point at the centre of the Earth, or whether it continues beyond that point, in a "virtual" , or "inside-out" sense, I am not quite sure. But I doubt it will ever be an issue for the Rules authorities!

Regards,
Paul

Hi Paul,
Thank you for replying. I'm not sure I asked the right question. Let me elaborate on my query.
Regards,
Max

Max,

Maybe I missed your point. If so I apologise.

And maybe you hit the wrong button. Please continue.

Paul

Hi Max,

It has all to do with the position of the ball. Does it lie in the bunker/GUR/WH or not, or out of bounds. Imagine a tree growing out of bounds but branches of that tree overhanging the vertical plane mentioned by Paul, and a ball lying on that branch. That ball will be in bounds. The same goes for a tree growing alongside a WH with branches stretching over the WH. If a ball ends up on a branch overhanging the WH, it is per definition IN the WH and Rule 26 is applicable, not Rule 28.

Hope that helps,
Johanna

Hello Johanna,

Sorry if this is an old one, but -

What about a ball lodged in a branch of a tree that grows within bounds in GUR, when the branch and, therefore the ball, overhang the boundary?

Paul

Dag Paul,

I recall the discussions about that one, but the answer can be found in Decision 25/10.5. The reference point for taking relief without penalty is the spot on the ground immediately below the place where the ball lay in the tree.

Johanna

Johanna,

Have we got our wires crossed? In the situation I was trying to describe, that reference point would be OOB.

Paul

Hello Paul,

I did indeed misinterpret your question but I can think of two answers:

1. The ball may be dropped without penalty within one clublength of the nearest spot in bounds;
2. By definition the ball lies out of bounds and the player must continue play according to Rule 27. Reason: Despite the GUR the boundary of the course hasn't changed.

I favour the second option but I am not 100% sure.

Kind regards,
Johanna

Hi Johanna,

I would proceed on the basis of your first option. The ref. point, on the ground, immediately below the ball in the tree, will be used to find the NPR, in bounds, WRT that ref. point. The NPR will of course only be for stance or area of swing, from the GUR, and will not include line of play relief for the tree. This "ruling" satisfies both the definition of GUR and the scenario in D25/10.5.

Do you agree?
Regards,
Ron.

I think the second option applies Johanna. Ball is OOB.

Looks like you asked this one before at LS, Paul.

Rule 25: Tree in GUR
Pauly -- Saturday, 1 December 2007, at 21:18 (GMT)

DC,

See above: "Sorry if this is an old one".

An internal contradiction is not resolved by ointment, only by surgery.

Paul

Tree surgery?

Many golfers would support that.

Good morning,
Thank you for input. Up/down-wards in the case of OOB are understandable. As for WH, why is it possible to ground a club on a bridge above the WH and what other cases do we have in WH which fall into an upward situation except grass and trees? As for the down situation in a WH and Bunker, would need practical cases. And one last question : What do we do with a ball in a tree 100% in GUR? and, where in GUR starts the downward direction?
Thank you,
Max

Hi All,
I have to admit, I have somewhat lost track of this discussion. However, for completeness, I have cited two Rules references in support of my opoinion re the ball in the tree in GUR being inbounds. I do not know what Paul's view is, but I, and possibly other's, would be interested in the views of those who think the ball is OOB.

Regards,
Ron.

MaxSchibli wrote:Good morning,
Thank you for input. Up/down-wards in the case of OOB are understandable. As for WH, why is it possible to ground a club on a bridge above the WH and what other cases do we have in WH which fall into an upward situation except grass and trees? As for the down situation in a WH and Bunker, would need practical cases. And one last question : What do we do with a ball in a tree 100% in GUR? and, where in GUR starts the downward direction?
Thank you,
Max

Max,

It's allowed to ground on a bridge in a water hazard because a bridge is an obstruction and thus not ground in the hazard, and there's no penalty if the player hits an obstruction in the backswing when the ball is played from a hazard for the same reason.
(Decision 13-4/30)
But if there are leaves or other loose impediments on the bridge, the player can not remove them because the margins of the water hazard extend upwards.

A ball hanging up in a tree in GUR is in GUR.
The margins of GUR extends downwards from the outermost limit of the GUR.
(See the definition of "ground under repair")

RD,

"The margins of GUR extends downwards from the outermost limit of the GUR."

Are you sure of this? The margins extend vertically downwards, but are the outermost limits the same as margins?

I'm thinking of a white circle surrounding a tree, with the ball outside the circle, and a branch 20 metres up and overhead. I wouldn't give relief on account of the branch.

Paul

Ron

I assert that the ball is OOB if it is the branch of a tree which crosses the OOB line regardless of whether the tree, on the course side of OOB, is in GUR.

Think of a puddle of casual water. This sigle area of casual water is bisected by the OOB line. The ball lies in the casual water on the OOB side of the line, not the course side. Are you going to grant relief under R25? I hope your answer is no because the ball does not lie on the course - it is OOB. And so it is with the ball in the tree branch; the ball is OOB because it does not lie on the course.

DC

Paul wrote:I wouldn't give relief on account of the branch.

D25/10.5 says the player gets relief.

He would only not get relief if the ball was in a part of the tree that was OOB.

Folks,

This thread has become chaotic. There may be several issues worth pursuing, and that, I think, should be done in separate threads.

Cheers,
Paul

I'm a bit late arriving to this discussion, but I think a rereading of D. 25/10.5 provides the answer: specifically "A player's ball found through the green...." precludes any relief if the branch holding the ball is OOB as OB "extends vertically upwards and downwards."
Divot