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Q25 - MGA 1016

Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:24 pm

25. In stroke play, A’s ball lies on the putting green 40 feet from the hole. B’s ball is just off the putting green 20 feet from the hole. A putts and his ball comes to rest five feet above the hole. A places a coin behind the ball but does not lift it. B requests the flagstick be put back into the hole. Unbeknownst to B and during his backswing, a gust of wind causes A’s ball to roll. The balls collide and B’s ball is deflected into the hole while A’s ball comes to rest 25 feet from the hole. What is the ruling?

A) Neither A nor B is penalized. A’s and B’s strokes must both be cancelled and replayed.

B)Neither A nor B is penalized. A must play his ball from its new position. B’s ball is holed.

C) A must replace his ball and play from the original position. B’s ball is holed and he must add two penalty strokes to his score for the hole.

D) A must replace his ball and play his next stroke from in front of the coin. B’s ball is holed and he must add two penalty strokes to his score for the hole

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:22 pm

As this lonely swan has attracted no friends I will start every one off with my answer.

Disqualify MGA for getting their options wrong! :lol:

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:26 pm

Chippings wrote:As this lonely swan has attracted no friends I will start every one off with my answer.

Disqualify MGA for getting their options wrong! :lol:


I didn't like any of the answers either.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:04 pm

I'll be brave
A)

I'm positing that A's ball was moving after a stoke. The rule does not say 'as a result of'.
I'm sure 'does not lift it' is significant. 19-5/1.5

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:17 pm

B) Neither A nor B is penalized. A must play his ball from its new position. B’s ball is holed.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:51 pm

regole wrote:B) Neither A nor B is penalized. A must play his ball from its new position. B’s ball is holed.


Hello regole,

The problem I had with answer B) has to do with player A. I was thinking that his ball being blown by the wind was a continuation of his last stroke made on the green. (he never took it out of play) As it was deflected by another ball in motion he was required to cancel and replay.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:53 pm

dormie1360 wrote: I was thinking that his ball being blown by the wind was a continuation of his last stroke made on the green.


Hi John

The A's ball was not deflected while it was in motion following a stroke, was at rest. After start another story and, imo, 19-5b apply.

Regards.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:51 am

regole wrote:
dormie1360 wrote: I was thinking that his ball being blown by the wind was a continuation of his last stroke made on the green.


Hi John

The A's ball was not deflected while it was in motion following a stroke, was at rest. After start another story and, imo, 19-5b apply.

Regards.


Thanks regole,

Does anything in D19-5/1.5 make you want to reconsider? Would it be fair to say, in the decision's answer, deciding if the deflection was "after the stroke" was based on whether or not the ball was lifted?

Edit: I see Doug already mentioned D19-5/1.5, :oops: so you may have already judged it to be not applicable in our case.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:17 pm

Doug wrote:I'll be brave
A)

I'm positing that A's ball was moving after a stoke. The rule does not say 'as a result of'.
I'm sure 'does not lift it' is significant. 19-5/1.5


:?

Hi Doug,
This had escaped me, that you put the correct answer is A).
While respecting your opinion, but since B played from off the green, according which rule should be deleted and repeat the stroke :?:
Thanks ad Regards

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:28 pm

E) Neither A nor B is penalized. A must cancel and replay his stroke. B’s ball is holed.

Did anyone initially think the above was the answer? I'm still having trouble with the answers listed.

Any significance to the flagstick being put back in, it doesn't appear it was done while a ball was in motion. Along with "not lift", I can not think of any other clues..

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:31 pm

E is my answer as well. clap

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:23 pm

Chippings wrote:E is my answer as well. clap


My answer is B.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:46 pm

Having reflected on this scenario a little further I agree that B is the correct answer.

We must accept as factual , that the ball was at rest and The placement of the ball marker must be viewed as confirmation of this fact. This now signals the ending of the stroke.
The further movement , after acceptance that the ball is at rest , must be attributed to the agency "WIND" as stated.
Thus when A's ball in motion is deflected by an outside agency ( f/competitor's ball see definition) it is rub of the green (R 19-1) and the ball must be played where it lies.
There are similarities in this question to question 13 where the player's Ball is at rest in the tree for over 4 minutes and is also moved by wind.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:09 pm

Chippings wrote:Having reflected on this scenario a little further I agree that B is the correct answer.

We must accept as factual , that the ball was at rest and The placement of the ball marker must be viewed as confirmation of this fact. This now signals the ending of the stroke.
The further movement , after acceptance that the ball is at rest , must be attributed to the agency "WIND" as stated.
Thus when A's ball in motion is deflected by an outside agency ( f/competitor's ball see definition) it is rub of the green (R 19-1) and the ball must be played where it lies.
There are similarities in this question to question 13 where the player's Ball is at rest in the tree for over 4 minutes and is also moved by wind.


Hello Chippings,

I guess I need to reflect some more. :D

With the bold above it would be helpful if I could find something that clearly says or implies this. It does seem to me D19-5/1.5 is implying something different (I.E. if the ball were not lifted, there would have been in breach of R19-5a). If the answer for question 13 is D) (I believe that was the consensus so far), Player A was allowed to cancel his stroke, this also seems to imply something different because although R19-3 doesn't specifically say after a stroke, I must admit I've always assumed that was the implication.

There's probably something I'm missing or don't understand.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:17 am

dormie1360 wrote:Chippings said:
We must accept as factual , that the ball was at rest and The placement of the ball marker must be viewed as confirmation of this fact. This now signals the ending of the stroke.
The further movement , after acceptance that the ball is at rest , must be attributed to the agency "WIND" as stated.

John said:
With the bold above it would be helpful if I could find something that clearly says or implies this. .


John -I was thinking exactly like yourself but having looked at those situations where a ball at rest was moved -- the following made me change my mind.
(1) Decision 20-2c/3.5. In this decision the ball moving (after being at rest ) does not revert back to the drop so why should our ball at rest revert back to the stroke. AND
(2) Decision 18-2/0.5. This decision investigates factors which may cause a ball at rest to move (wind,rain,and ground condition) and goes on to say
""OTHERWISE THE PLAYER INCURS NO PENALTY AND THE BALL MUST BE PLAYED AS IT LIES UNLESS SOME OTHER RULE APPLIES. ( last sentence4th paragraph)
If we accept that no other rule applies then this statement applies.

I also naturally assumed that R19-3 was all about deflection after a stroke but now believe that the absence of the words " after a stroke " widens / increases those situations whereby the player may cancel his previous stroke and also similarly may incur a penalty if 19-2 was the applicable rule.
Hope these comments may help.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:35 am

My fragile knowledge of golf rules is crumbling. :cry:

I'm pretty sure the MGA has vetted this test enough resulting in correct answers. Although Adrian has not commented, he agrees with answer B). Thanks for your time Chippings, I always enjoy the discussions.

P.S. I notice RJM does not normally participate in the MGA threads, probably a wise decision. :)

P.S.S Doug, I didn't mean to imply your opinion doesn't count, it's just answer B) has us out voted right now.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:06 pm

B)
The marking of the ball has no bearing on this case. The ball is still in play and at rest before it started to move due to the wind. 19-5 is not applicable on A.s ball as it did not move due to a stroke. D19-5/1.5 handels this case. R19-5b first sentence covers B:s ball.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:30 pm

B)Neither A nor B is penalized. A must play his ball from its new position. B’s ball is holed.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:23 pm

C R16-1f, R19-5

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:38 am

I have a problem in understanding the reasoning given to the correct answer, not the answer itself though. It seems that the two-stroke penalty given to B is based on the fact that his ball is moving because of his previous stroke (R16-1f). I´m having trouble understanding this because of two reasons: 1. his stroke was made outside of the green 2. it was his turn to play as he made the stroke. How can he be penalized according to R16-1f? Instead of that penalty he should get 2PS hitting the flagstick (R17-3) but there is no mention about breaching this rule. Very confusing, please help.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:26 pm

Seems that I have had a problem in understanding the question itself and who did what and when so please forget my post above.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:13 am

I think the ans they are looking for is(c). A's ball was played from the PG therefore R19-1b applies. But I don't see where the 2sp to (B) comes from. I think we all agree that it is a bad question unless they have someting up their sleeves.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:26 pm

don wrote:I think the ans they are looking for is(c). A's ball was played from the PG therefore R19-1b applies. But I don't see where the 2sp to (B) comes from. I think we all agree that it is a bad question unless they have someting up their sleeves.


Agree as Doug advised earlier R 16-1f ,R 19-5. Although the ball putted had apparently come to rest and had been marked, it was still in play as it had not been lifted so the authorities rule that the subsequent moving still related to the stroke on the green. It is what the rules state but a lot of members including on the LS do not like it.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:47 pm

Except for Wendy who I support.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:35 am

Doug wrote:Except for Wendy who I support.


I subsequently agreed on the LS and mentioned that I thought they should use as a guideline D 14-5/1. There were also quite a few of the LS members who agree the ruling. I obviously accept the ruling but am not happy with it which is irrelevant. My worry is that there must be very few players who are aware of the ruling and if this arises in a major tournament the press is going to have a field day which could be avoided if the authorities issued clarification.

Re: Q25 - MGA 1016

Sat Apr 02, 2016 6:43 am

Yes, I was really just highlighting Wendy's involvement
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