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R20-3

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R20-3

Postby dormie1360 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:47 pm

A recent thread has me thinking about this rule, and I must admit I'm not comfortable with the rule's application. How much of this do I understand correctly?

If a player's ball at rest is moved TTG by an OA, say someone in the gallery, if the original spot is known the ball is replaced (by placing) and the player, partner, or even the person that moved it can replace it. (lie was not changed)

If the original spot is not known, the player must replace the ball by dropping.

If the ball were moved, changing the lie at the same time, (and you knew it's original position) the ball is placed in the nearest most similar lie. This is a new spot so it's "placed" by the player/partner. Or is he replacing by placing?

If the above happened but you don't know the exact spot, if you know the lie the player or partner places on the nearest most similar lie. If you did not know the lie the player estimates and drops.


So a player's ball in the rough is stepped on. Would it be a placed in the nearest similar lie if the person stepping on the ball said they knew the lie?

A player's ball get's run over by a mower. Neither the lie or the spot is known so a drop estimating the spot?

For some reason I just have a real mental block with this rule, I think I've spent an hour on this post and I just keep confusing myself as I probably have everyone else.
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Re: R20-3

Postby Doug » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:32 pm

John

Don't 20-3b/4 & 5 help?

Match your two questions against the decisions.
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Re: R20-3

Postby dormie1360 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:08 pm

Doug wrote:John

Don't 20-3b/4 & 5 help?

Match your two questions against the decisions.


First dumb question.

Who can decide what the original lie was? Must the player have seen the original lie?

Edit: I guess with a wrong ball, the player who owned the ball would obviously have not seen it. So could a gallery member describe the lie. Lies in closely mown areas seem pretty easy to figure out, but what about balls in the rough?
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Re: R20-3

Postby dormie1360 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:12 pm

Ok, forget my other posts. I couldn't understand them either.

You guys are out doing your Referee thing. You are confronted with a situation where a ball at rest in the rough was moved.

First, what would satisfy you (if anything) that the previous spot could be accurately determined allowing the ball to be replaced?

Do you consider who moved it, witnesses, length of ruff, how precise the information is.......I'm looking for guidelines.
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Re: R20-3

Postby Doug » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:57 pm

John

For starters.
Is there a very close distinctive reference eg divot hole, daisy?
Did the person who moved it see it when it was moved?
If not, did anyone else see where it was moved from?
Is the close area/grass relatively short?
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Re: R20-3

Postby dormie1360 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:37 pm

Thanks. If you'll just bear with me a little longer, I'm getting closer.

Back in the rough, it' more of the 3" plus variety. A ball is stepped on. The ball may have been pushed downward, we don't know for sure. It could have been sitting up a little or resting on the ground. It may have moved laterally a little bit, but lets say we know how much that was.

So we know for sure where the ball was laterally, but not vertically. The foot has also pushed the grass down a little around the ball.

So in this case, the spot is not determinable? Because the grass had been pushed down, the lie has also been changed? Because we don't know how the ball sat in the grass, would you say we don't know the lie?
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Re: R20-3

Postby Doug » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:06 pm

If the grass is longer than about 3 or 4", I would be doubtful about any claim to know the spot or lie.
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Re: R20-3

Postby dormie1360 » Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:52 pm

Which....... is what the decision is saying. I'm just overthinking lie vs position changes.

One last thing. Do I understand R20-3a correctly that if a gallery member picked up a player's ball the gallery member may replace it?

I ask because I thought I remember a situation where a Referee had an OA replace a ball and then the player replace it again. I think it was a European tour player.
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Re: R20-3

Postby Doug » Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:54 pm

Yes, if you mean picked it up from it from where it was originally. But no, if he picked it up from where someone or something else had moved it to.
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