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WH inside GUR /entirely GUR

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WH inside GUR /entirely GUR

Postby Mr. Bean » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:24 pm

Hi all

I found an old thread with a title 'GUR inside WH' and there it was concluded that when a part of a WH is marked as GUR player is not entitled to relief from that GUR.

But what if an entire WH is marked as GUR or a WH is inside an area marked as GUR, is the ruling different? Does that WH lose its status as a hazard if it has been marked as GUR entirely?
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Re: WH inside GUR /entirely GUR

Postby Doug » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:29 am

It is my understanding that the area is automatically Through the Green and loses its status as a hazard.
25/13 and the wording of 33-8/27 support this.
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Re: WH inside GUR /entirely GUR

Postby Mr. Bean » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:45 pm

Doug wrote:It is my understanding that the area is automatically Through the Green and loses its status as a hazard.
25/13 and the wording of 33-8/27 support this.


Well, there are two issues that contradict that:
1. Both of those Decisions only mention bunker. If eg. D25/13 is to be extended to cover all types of hazards why is it not written in that way?
2. If only a part of a WH is GUR why does that part not lose its status as hazard? In the very least a player should be allowed to determine NPR and drop their ball outside the GUR with no penalty. However, that is not supported by the Rules (R25-1b).

I find this issue slightly complicated as IMO the ruling should depend on the fact how much the dimensions or character of the WH in question are changed. Also one needs to ask why a WH needs to be marked as GUR in the first place. After all, WH's are not the places a player needs to have an option to play from, unlike bunkers.

Any further thoughts?
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Re: WH inside GUR /entirely GUR

Postby Doug » Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:09 pm

Re your latter point. We are in the process of restructuring a small pond where the level of water is variable, so often allowing the player to play from the WH
But as it is a 'construction site' at the moment from which entry is prohibited when staff are working there, it and the surrounding area is deemed GUR.
A WH in the middle of GUR gets very complicated.
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Re: WH inside GUR /entirely GUR

Postby Mr. Bean » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:07 pm

Doug wrote:Re your latter point. We are in the process of restructuring a small pond where the level of water is variable, so often allowing the player to play from the WH


You are right in the core of this issue.

Sometimes it is possible to play from that pond of yours but not always. So, today it is being restructured, so today it is not possible to play from there.

Why should a player benefit from it? After all, it IS still a WH, isn't it?

(and again, if a part of a WH is being restructured and marked as GUR AND that particular part is often playable, so why a relief should be denied..?)
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Re: WH inside GUR /entirely GUR

Postby Doug » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:27 pm

It's not that the part is playable or unplayable but that access to the area is not permitted whilst work is actually in progress.
As players cannot be sure just when that is happening, the safe way is to simply forbid access at all times. Part of the work area may not be within the normal WH boundary.
So GUR, play and access prohibited.
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Re: WH inside GUR /entirely GUR

Postby Mr. Bean » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:30 pm

Doug wrote:It's not that the part is playable or unplayable but that access to the area is not permitted whilst work is actually in progress.
As players cannot be sure just when that is happening, the safe way is to simply forbid access at all times. Part of the work area may not be within the normal WH boundary.
So GUR, play and access prohibited.


Safety is of paramount importance, absolutely. However, this kind of approach creates even more questions.

In this thread post10441.html?hilit=GUR%20inside%20WH#p10441 You and Don are quite adamant about the 'sacrosanctity' of Definition. But here You are willing to let go that and allow relief from a WH even though R25-1b specifically forbids that.

But let us assume You are correct and for safety or whatever reason an entire WH could be declared as GUR and it would lose its status as WH, then why a part of a WH declared as GUR would NOT lose that status?

Furthermore, it is possible to prohibit play from a GUR by declaring that in the Local Rules and marking the GUR accordingly (blue/white stakes). Identical situation would also be an ESA that is also a WH. No access, no play, but it maintains its status as WH.

The problem I am experiencing is 3-fold:
1. D25/13 does NOT mention WH, which I believe it would if a WH should be treated the same way as bunkers
2. In marking of ESA the Committee should attempt to maintain the characteristics of the hole (D33-8/41). IMO this principle also applies to WH's marked as GUR.

And of course the third:

3. Rule 25-1b says 'Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a player may take relief from interference by an abnormal ground condition as follows'

How can one override a Rule by a Local Rule when one has no Decision to back it up? Why does that Rule exist in the first place? I think we are back to the principle described in D33-8/41 (the Committee should attempt to maintain the characteristics of the hole).

Entering a GUR area can be prohibited with a number of ways. I cannot really see that safety would be the issue to remove the status of a WH under renovation. I foresee that happening only if the dimensions of that WH are substantially increased changing the characteristics of the hole in questions.
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Re: WH inside GUR /entirely GUR

Postby Doug » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:52 pm

I am relying on "Ground under repair" is any part of the course so marked by order of the Committee or so declared by its authorized representative
and equity.
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Re: WH inside GUR /entirely GUR

Postby Mr. Bean » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:41 pm

Doug wrote:I am relying on "Ground under repair" is any part of the course so marked by order of the Committee or so declared by its authorized representative
and equity.


Certainly Committee may declare any part of the course as GUR but that is not the issue but whether any part of the course loses its status as hazard. Rule 25-1b certainly does not support that.
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Re: WH inside GUR /entirely GUR

Postby Doug » Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:26 pm

I can't add any more.
You will need to check with the R&A
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Re: WH inside GUR /entirely GUR

Postby don » Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:36 am

FWIW, I cannot go along with a WH losing it's status just because it is GUR. Best I could come up with in the cicumstances would be to make the WH OOB.
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Re: WH inside GUR /entirely GUR

Postby Doug » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:54 pm

I asked the R&A if a LR along the lines of:

The whole area had been marked as
GUR (Through the Green)
Play Prohibited
Free relief to be taken under 25-1b


is permitted?

The gist of the reply was:

It would be OK until the work is complete and the WH is in play. It is a rare situation but not against the rules.
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Re: WH inside GUR /entirely GUR

Postby don » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:00 pm

Doug, thank you for that, we learn something every day. I have certainly never seen this before. I think the key is that it is also designated as TTG, akin to the old requirement for a bunker.
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Re: WH inside GUR /entirely GUR

Postby Mr. Bean » Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:03 pm

Thanks, Doug.
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Re: WH inside GUR /entirely GUR

Postby Mr. Bean » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:03 am

I had a question regarding free relief from a WH entirely marked as GUR sent to USGA some time ago and they finally responded no free relief as per R25-1b which denies relief when a ball is in a WH.

Interesting.
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Re: WH inside GUR /entirely GUR

Postby Doug » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:49 am

Indeed but not exceptional.
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