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Wrong ball or substituted ball?

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Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby 999Q » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:17 pm

After a short search in deep rough a player finds a ball and positively identifies it at his, strictly following the procedure in Rule 12-2. After playing a stroke at this ball he then finds another ball, which he realises is his original ball and not the one that he has just played. Has he played a wrong ball and the original ball is still in play, or did he substitute a ball and the original ball has to be abandoned?

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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby Chippings » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:07 am

999q

A substituted ball played from the wrong place.
As he did not know the location of his original ball at the time of substitution 27-1 is the applicable rule and the player should have proceeded under 20-5.
More information is needed to determine whether the wrong place is a serious breach or not.
The original ball is lost.
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Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby quincy » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:13 am

Spot on! As a rule of thumb a ball dropped or (re)placed by the player is never a wrong ball with only one single exception: when it occurs as a continuation of playing a wrong ball.

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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby Doug » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:57 am

The easy way to remember the rule of thumb is, if it is in his hand it won't be a wrong ball.
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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby RJM » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:44 pm

Note Decision 15/4 as an exception to the general rule.
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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby Doug » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:58 pm

I wonder why the penalty is different to his taking another ball out of his pocket by mistake.
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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby regole » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:21 pm

Doug wrote:The easy way to remember the rule of thumb is, if it is in his hand it won't be a wrong ball.


Agree clap
Ruole 15-2
...........
If a player substitutes a ball when not permitted to do so under the Rules(including an unintentional substitution when a wrong ball is dropped or placed by the player), that substituted ball is not a wrong ball; it becomes the ball in play. If the mistake is not corrected as provided in Rule 20-6 and the player makes a stroke at an incorrectly substituted ball, he loses the hole in match play or incurs a penalty of two strokes in stroke play under the applicable Rule. and, in stroke play, must play out the hole with the substituted ball.
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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:26 am

Late night reply is a wrong ball but may regret not waiting until tomorrow to reply.
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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby dormie1360 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:32 pm

RJM wrote:Note Decision 15/4 as an exception to the general rule.


The other exception I am aware of is D20-4/2, which is similar to 15/4.
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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:29 pm

Barry,

What is your view on the question you posed?
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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby 999Q » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:13 pm

Adrian,

Because I specified that the player followed the procedure in Rule 12-2 the implication was that they marked and lifted the ball they had found, therefore the ball they played was a substituted ball from the wrong place and not a wrong ball.

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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:42 pm

Barry,

When the player acts under R 12-2 he is permitted to lift the ball and then replace it. The act of replacing the ball is done under R12-2 and is not considered in my opinion as the player substituting a ball. If he placed a different ball then he would have substituted a ball.

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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby 999Q » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:07 pm

Adrian,

You seem to be disagreeing with the other contributors to this thread who all agree that "if it is in his hand it won't be a wrong ball". If it is not a wrong ball, or the player's original ball, it must be a substituted ball.

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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:12 pm

Barry,

I agree I disagree. I believe it was Doug who said that as a rule of thumb "if it is in his hand it won`t be a wrong ball" My opinion is this rule of thumb is not applicable in relation to this post.

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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby 999Q » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:19 pm

Adrian,

Quincy, Doug, RJM, regole ....... and no-one else disputed it!

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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby Doug » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:43 pm

The ball erroneously lifted was no longer in play when lifted. When a ball (ie that ball) was put into play it was substituted illegally. It was not the original ball.
If it was not the original, it has to be a wrong ball or a substituted ball. It only matches the definition of the latter not the former.
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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby Chippings » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:21 pm

Adrian
The ruling bodies attempted to clarify the status of a stray ball introduced into play when they last revised rule 15-2 wording in the last rules revision.(2016)

Regole referenced this change in his answer :
I.e
If a player substitutes a ball when not permitted to do so under the Rules(including an unintentional substitution when a wrong ball is dropped or placed by the player), that substituted ball is not a wrong ball, it becomes the ball in play.

If you look at the new proposed 2019 definition for a wrong ball they have also tried to further clarify by stating that a wrong ball includes:

a stray ball at rest on the ground.

So each of these clarifying statements confirms that in this scenario we are talking substituted ball as a wrong ball satisfies none of these statements.

Hope this helps .
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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:35 pm

Substituted Ball

A "substituted ball" is a ball put into play for the original ball that was either in play, lost, out of bounds or lifted
, whether or not the substitution was permitted. A substituted ball becomes the ball in play when it has been dropped or placed (see Rule 20-4).

The player decided to apply R 15-2 in order to identify the ball, which it later turns out to be a wrong ball, and not what the player initially assumed to be his ball, when he inspected it after lifting.
When he replaced the ball, the ball still remains to be a wrong ball and not a substituted ball. Up to this point the player as far as we know has complied with the rules including R 12-2. He then hits the ball which he had previously lifted under R 12-2. I still maintain that he has hit a wrong ball and it is incorrect to apply regression and use the fact the player replaced the ball under R 12-2, to say that the player has incorrectly substituted a ball. My point of view is effectively saying that as the player has complied with the rules when he opted for R 12-2, he continues playing as if the ball had not been lifted under R 12-2.

I am well aware that nobody agrees with my opinion that the ball is a wrong ball and I understand the opinion of everybody else, but for the time being I am not convinced I am wrong, which is often a bad sign, and it may very well be proven shortly that I am wrong. I would like to thank you and the others in their attempts to convert me.

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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby Chippings » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:24 pm

Adrian
Not ready to give up on you yet.

It is your prerogative to place your interpretation on the rules and not just fallin line with what we are saying.

However read decision 15/14 again and place your own interpretation on the following part of the answer:-

the player was permitted to identify the ball following the procedure in Rule 12-2 or , having lifted it under rule28, could have inspected the ball to verify that it was his ball in play. In this case the ball dropped and played was not his original ball ; it was a substituted ball.

Does not the above answer match the circumstances?
.
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Re: Wrong ball or substituted ball?

Postby Adrian Mackenzie » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:06 am

Chippings wrote:Adrian
Not ready to give up on you yet.

It is your prerogative to place your interpretation on the rules and not just fallin line with what we are saying.

However read decision 15/14 again and place your own interpretation on the following part of the answer:-

the player was permitted to identify the ball following the procedure in Rule 12-2 or , having lifted it under rule28, could have inspected the ball to verify that it was his ball in play. In this case the ball dropped and played was not his original ball ; it was a substituted ball.

Does not the above answer match the circumstances?
.


D 15/14 does indeed kill my argument. Many thanks.

Regards,
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